1:1 Passenger Car Construction

Started by Vietnam Seabee, September 18, 2020, 09:41:30 AM

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Vietnam Seabee

I'm wondering what the real world roof construction would have been on an 1850s passenger car. I'm building a LaBelle kit which will be a 'well used' but not so nearly well maintained car being used as an office/storage space for my Fosscale Gruber Glass Co.
Two questions I have. What was used to waterproof/seal the roof? Sheet goods (like tarpaper) or a tar like substance that was trowled on?
What was the underlying substrate structure. This was pre-plywood days so I'm thinking 2x board material. I've attached a roof photo of Gruber Glass and want to do the same type of 'deteriorating' roof condition on the car.
Gruber Glass is doing well business wise but old man Gruber doesn't believe in spending hard earned money on roof repairs....maybe next summer before the Florida rainy season.
Thanks
Terry

deemery

On roofing, short answer is "yes"  :D

One common 19th century roof was painted canvas.  That's easy to model.  Take a piece of telephone book paper.  Lay down a thick coat of paint the color you want your roof.  Lay the paper on that paint (using the paint as an adhesive) and then apply another coat of paint over the paper.  Any small wrinkles you get will actually look realistic.  Boxcar red makes a reasonable roofing color. 

As that wore out, I can see the MOW crews applying tarpaper held down with roofing cement or even with wood battens running the length of the car. 

For really weathered roofs, do some paper strips to simulate wood planks, then work a hole in the roofing to expose those planks.  ("paper planks" will be thin so you don't make the roof too thick.)

Another kind of roof was 'terne' metal.  That would weather to a dull pewter grey color.

dave
Modeling the Northeast in the 1890s - because the little voices told me to

Vietnam Seabee

Thanks Dave....painted canvas,huh?...that gets me thinking about the micro fiber cloth used for eye glass wipes....Scale-wise (ho) the mesh looks about right
Terry

postalkarl

Hey Terry:

Roof looks great as does the rest of the structure.

Karl

Vietnam Seabee

Thanks Karl.....One area I'm not happy with are the windows...I'm not a big fan of plastic windows and I couldn't find laser cut wood windows in the sizes I needed so I scratch built the windows out of strip wood...not totally satisfied but hope to get better the next time.
Terry

bparrish

Terry...

Finally ........ some one asks a question about an era that is close to what I model.   Years ago I modeled Civil War era and shortly after.  I got there during the 1960's Centennial stuff of that decade.   However there was not a lot of options for locomotives or rolling stock so I move later, 1890's when I started modeling a short line here in downtown Idaho.

I probably have built at least one of everything Labelle ever produced.  I wrote the "how to's" on Rick's web site.  They are a bit hidden but it is under hints and tips or something like that.


On page 181 of John White's tome, The American Railroad Freight Car, he mentions the use of canvas.  Earlier, 1840's they used a number of things, shingles (of described size and shape) and sheet zinc.  For the 1850's and later an easy choice would be canvas. 


So where did it come from and what did it look like?  Mostly they used sail canvas.  It was at the time coarse cotton and had a weave that looked much like what our denim jeans of today.  Recall Solomon Levi of San Francisco originally used sail cloth for his original patent dungarees.

For the most part is was applied by putting down a layer of hot tar and then putting the canvas on that active surface. Then it was tacked along seams and edges.  Then another layer of tar was applied.

Below are two photos of my Labelle trolley freight motors with a canvas tar roof.  The first one (if you struggle) can see the seams variously on the surface.  The other is continuous sheet.    I apply it similarly to the tar method noted above.  I peel apart common Kleenex down to a single ply and cut it into strips that scale out to what ever width of sheet I want; usually 6 or 8 scale feet.

I then put on a thick layer of Floquil grimy black and put the Kleenex into the wet paint.  When dry I apply a second coat of grimy over that.  The edges seal down very well and don't need much maintenance.  Edges are then easily trimmed with a new x-acto blade as the Kleenex is stiff with paint.  Only occasionally will and edge need some white glue to hold it down.





Hope this helps
Bob
Did you ever notice how many towns are named after their water towers ! ?

Vietnam Seabee

Thanks Bob... I found your 'how-tos' on the LaBelle site and printed them out. If your 'roof' technique is listed I haven't found it yet...but I have it now.

I'm familiar with working with tissue/toilet paper. That's what I use to make my tar paper for the roof shown in the photo I attached.

Thanks again for your response.

BTW ...if you weren't aware, B.T.S.    www.btsrr.com has Civil war era rail car kits.

Terry

Vietnam Seabee

Bob...regarding your 'how-tos' step one on the Labelle instruction sheet was confusing as heck regarding the window posts until I read your How-To...also, I took your advice on joining sheets of scribed wood with the painters tape...thanks

Terry

bparrish

Terry....

I re-read your first questions.    I forgot about your question of what was under the roof canvas.

Passenger cars were quite different from other freight rolling stock.  Due to the windows, diagonal bracing was only under the window belt line.  A box car would have it to the roof plate.   Passenger cars were built rather like ships with ribs on a desired spacing.

Look at any old photo and you will see that the divides in the clerestory window match the spacing of the lower windows.  Hence the ribs went over the top.  There was quite a bit of structuring and gusseting necessary to hold things up.  Early cars actually had through rods along the car that would stop sagging of the roof and bulging of the sides.  Later these went away as the joinery of the wood workers improved; but it was still a short coming of wood passenger cars over sixty feet.

Now to you question............ John White only brushes against what passenger cars might have had as his book is aimed at freight.   They would have used individual boards running the length of the car.  Understandably there would have been seams as although wood was available is longer lengths than we are used to today, there were still efficiencies of scale.

Recall that the demise of the wood under frame in rolling stock and especially in passenger was the declining availability of beams of the length of the demands by the late 1880's and 90's.  Yes, loads were a contributing factor in changing to riveted plate steel; but unavailability was a piece of it.

Navigation fell prey to the same thing as the availability of 75+ foot Cook Pines just were no longer available for ship's masts.

To go on...  the wood strips were rather narrow, two to two and a half inches wide by what I can tell was normal and the thickness could not be too great as it needed to be pulled down at the rounded ends of the cars.  Also on the outer hip of the car, the boards would have had to be narrowed, think of barrel staves, to achieve the narrowing over the vestibules.

There is no mention of tongue and groove being used.


Now to a point of speculation.  As labor was so cheap at that time, there may of been fleets of apprentice workers who used long jack planes and manually rounded the edges of the various boards as that would have led to edges that would cut into the canvas and shorten the life of the roof.


In coach work and in early auto bodies (which were wood with sheet steel over it) it was found that oak was best for horizontal joinery and ash for vertical.  My guess is that the car builders had long before made that observation.  Everything was mortise and tenon.  After that nails were used for application of the sub roof sheathing.

You are correct .... I have nothing on the Labelle page about the Kleenex roofing.  However there are things on the clerestory in two areas as I recall..   I wrote those nearly 15 years ago.

Look also in the areas that are specific to trolleys.  There is data that is not duplicated elsewhere.

Hope this helps.

Always looking out for a swabbie..
Bob
Did you ever notice how many towns are named after their water towers ! ?