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Forum Boards => Modeling: Wall Techniques => Topic started by: Willwood42 on February 10, 2016, 11:48:23 PM

Title: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: Willwood42 on February 10, 2016, 11:48:23 PM
If a wall made of clapboard siding has end trim, would the trim hide the first column of nail holes, or would they appear just inside the trim?

Thanks  -david
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: rpdylan on February 11, 2016, 12:13:13 AM
Are you talking about the corner posts? What I do is put the holes in close to the edge before I glue the corner posts to the wall.  A great DVD to watch is Foscale's Bob Mitchell modelng.  Lots of great tips and Bob is really entertaining.

Bob C.
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: bparrish on February 11, 2016, 01:20:52 AM
David...

The answer, if I understand the question, would be yes.  There would be no need to reveal the nails and most carpenters would have done what they could to hide the nails.  Further, in before building code balloon framing, there would have been no 2x4 beyond the corner molding so hook a nail into.

To go a step further, clap boarding was rather like ship lapping and there would only be one nail about a half inch up from the bottom edge.  The upper edge nail was hidden by the next lap up.

In HO the nail holes are really easy to scale too big.  Try an experiment with the board provided in the kit.  Take a scrap and poke some holes where you expect to put them.  Then swell them back close with alcohol.  This will not affect any coloring you put over them  That should run them back to scale.

See what you think. It's only a scrap test.

see ya
Bob
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: martin.ojaste on February 11, 2016, 09:42:14 AM
Bob,


Hmmm, interesting. I think the nailing pattern is area dependant and the width of the clapboard. I could see if the clapboard was only 4" wide the nailing you mention as being cirrect(or). When the boards were 8,10 or 12", two nails would not be enough. Three to four nails would normal for those widths.


As for the corners, I used to renovate Ballon constructed houses and the corners were often three posts and an addition one for nailing strapping for the brown coat. This would allow putting the corner trim on first and butting the clapboard against it. So you would see nails at the ends of the clapboards and in the corner trim.


So it depends the geographical location where the nail holes go, or just what looks better.



Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: oldbloodhound on February 11, 2016, 11:03:07 AM
Yes, the nailing would be what part of the country you are in.  In the east, clapboards are installed after the corner trim has been applied.  The clapboards are butted up to the corner trim and a nail IS put into the lower 1".
Clapboards are never 8/10/12 inches wide and only the bottom edge gets nailed.  Because the clapboards overlap one another, any nails into the middle will cause the board to split because they are not tight to the sub-siding (sheathing).  Generally the clapboards are nailed over the stud location but at the ends where there is not stud (used to be a wide corner post) they just nail into the sheathing.
Now on Western siding, it was customary to install the siding first and THEN  nail the corner boards on top of the siding.  In that case, the end nails would not show.

Now, if you are painting the building then the nails won't show anyways.  So don't spend time making hundreds of nail holes if not visible after being painted.
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: Willwood42 on February 11, 2016, 11:23:58 AM
Thanks for all the information.

I went out looking at some old derelict buildings in my area the other day and for many you couldn't even see the nails unless you were fairly close. 
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: martin.ojaste on February 11, 2016, 11:38:31 AM
For the wider clapboards, the lower thicker edge was rabbited to overlap the lower board. This makes the wider boards lie flat against the wall, ergo no splitting.


Agreed, if you are painting it only, skip the nail holes.
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: bparrish on February 11, 2016, 11:48:57 AM
OK gents.............  Here's a question.

Having to do with corner covering .....

I can't figure out why lap siding would be butted up against the corner covers.  It is the corner covers that make the corner joint sort of weather tight.

On vinyl lap siding the siding is not even nailed tight as linear expansion is a BIG issue.  There are elongated holes that the siding literally hangs on.  The bottom edge zips into the next line down.  They use the corner moldings to allow for the vinyl to go someplace and not buckle.

In the west there was a sawdust composition material that was available in ten or twelve inch wide panels.  It was popular here in the 1970's and early 80's.  It is now a four way flasher for dating a house as you drive by.  It is no longer available (mercifully) as it failed easily when wet at the lower panels near the ground. They did have a pre set mailing pattern for that and then every thing was caulked over.  No nails appeared............ initially.

So Martin, on the siding you mentioned, how do they make the ends water tight?

thanx
Bob
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: Mike Engler on February 11, 2016, 12:02:09 PM
This is maybe the fiftieth thread I have seen over the years regarding nailholes. My take is that it really gets down to personal preference as to whether you try to model them or not, since if they were the right scale in HO you probably wouldn't be able to see them.


I used to put them on most structures but lately haven't been doing them. I have to say that done neatly, and not done with a pounce wheel (that can leave rectangular holes), they can look pretty cool. There have been lots of photos of prototype structures posted  showing both visible and invisible nail holes.


Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: martin.ojaste on February 11, 2016, 12:24:08 PM
Bob,


The ends did suffer a bit a bit from rot, but no more than normal. I saw tar paper wrapped around the corners under the corner trim and about 6" under the clapboard. (in newer buildings, i.e.: 60 years old, the whole wall was tar papered and clapboard filed over it. In many cases chalking (putty) was applied at the end joins.


This is not different from applying the corner trim over the clapboard. There is a little triangular sliver gap between the trim and clapboard where water could collect and rot the wood. I suspect putty would have been applied the same way.
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: bparrish on February 11, 2016, 12:49:45 PM
Martin .....

Great

Thanx
Bob
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: Oldguy on February 12, 2016, 11:39:34 AM
As far as nail holes, I guess it would depend on building age and if it had ever been painted or not and environmental exposures.  As to the corners, it can go either way depending upon the builders preference.  From Shorpy, here is an old farm house where the nails are very evident and the corners have been treated both ways.   A lot of details in this little photo.

(http://modelersforum.com/gallery/88-120216113501.jpeg)
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: bparrish on February 12, 2016, 12:05:00 PM
Bob...

I suppose this photo just stirs the pot.  I recall the saying that there is a prototype for everything.

Great photo.

thanx
Bob
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: martin.ojaste on February 12, 2016, 12:46:15 PM
Love the photo - proves we all are right
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: donatode on February 12, 2016, 03:11:20 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPAC0k_4P_LNf3KBWGqlsCQ4tjh_UHUaDHJRasNJuIu5N0Poxn)
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: rpdylan on February 12, 2016, 04:11:54 PM
For me, I think that "hyper-reality" looks better. From a distance, i really don't see mortar lines in brick, nail holes, ect. but when modeled in HO, it makes the structure look more realistic.  I think thats why I love what George Sellios has done!

Bob C.
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: Janbouli on January 29, 2017, 07:04:27 PM
Hoping someone will read this .

What size of pounce wheel would make the right looking holes for H0, or should I get a set because it differs from kit to kit?
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: robertseckler on January 30, 2017, 09:14:09 AM
If you have a Micro Mark set of Pounce Wheels use the middle size.


Note sure what its called


I use
Middle size for HO Nail holes
Small Size for Nail holes in metal siding
Large for Rivets in Water Tower


Hope this helps



Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: deemery on January 30, 2017, 10:39:13 AM
Quote from: Oldguy on February 12, 2016, 11:39:34 AM
As far as nail holes, I guess it would depend on building age and if it had ever been painted or not and environmental exposures.  As to the corners, it can go either way depending upon the builders preference.  From Shorpy, here is an old farm house where the nails are very evident and the corners have been treated both ways.   A lot of details in this little photo.

(http://modelersforum.com/gallery/88-120216113501.jpeg) (http://modelersforum.com/gallery/88-120216113501.jpeg)
Until I saw this photo, I would have said, "You're doing it wrong."  Now I'll say, "They did it wrong." :-)


dave
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: rpdylan on January 30, 2017, 01:25:27 PM
has anyone used this?
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: S&S RR on January 30, 2017, 01:49:35 PM
Bob


The prototypical discussion on nail holes, as said above, depends on the part of the country and the era you are modeling.  Mike mentioned square vs. round.  I have lots of pictures of square nail holes in the buildings in the Keweenaw Peninsula of Michigan that have square nail holes from the late 1800's. As Bob said, there is a prototype for everything.  I model the 1940's and like the way the nail holes look - "it's the details" - so I put them in most of my clapboard structures.  If you are modeling 50's to present they were very uncommon because of the building practices. And were round if they are present - because the shape of nails changed.  If you like the way they look - us them - "it's your railroad".

Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: S&S RR on January 30, 2017, 01:54:36 PM
Quote from: rpdylan on January 30, 2017, 01:25:27 PM
has anyone used this?


I have a pounce wheel from Ireland - that I really like - and I can't remember who I bought it from.  It gives me two nail holes per clapboard on typical 4 inch clapboard with one of the wheels that comes with the set. Can anyone help my memory on who sells them? I bought it at either the Narrow Gauge Convention or the EXPO.
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: ACL1504 on January 30, 2017, 03:45:05 PM
Quote from: rpdylan on January 30, 2017, 01:25:27 PM
has anyone used this?


Yes, and I didn't like it one bit. Threw it in file 13 after a week. No reason, just didn't like it as well as the Micro Mark Ponce wheel.

Tom ;D
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: ACL1504 on January 30, 2017, 03:48:36 PM
I remember the good old days when I used a large needle for the nail holes. One nail hole at a time. It was time consuming. After a few walls I figured out why they made thimbles.

Now, for me, the MM ponce wheels are best. I use both the small and medium wheels depending on the size of the siding.

My .02 cents worth.

Tom ;D
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: Zephyrus52246 on January 30, 2017, 04:37:29 PM
Is the Irish Ponce wheel the Rivet-R by RB productions?  i used this on the Hilltown build and liked it a lot, it makes small round holes, not a line.   


Jeff
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: Janbouli on January 30, 2017, 05:06:49 PM
Thanks everyone, a company here in Belgium sells the MM set, so I'll be getting those.
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: S&S RR on January 30, 2017, 10:25:55 PM
Quote from: Zephyrus52246 on January 30, 2017, 04:37:29 PM
Is the Irish Ponce wheel the Rivet-R by RB productions?  i used this on the Hilltown build and liked it a lot, it makes small round holes, not a line.   


Jeff


Jeff


That's it! Do you remember who was selling them? I want to say Bob VanGelder but I just can't remember for sure.
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: S&S RR on January 30, 2017, 10:27:34 PM
Quote from: Janbouli on January 30, 2017, 05:06:49 PM
Thanks everyone, a company here in Belgium sells the MM set, so I'll be getting those.


Jan


They will serve you well. 
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: S&S RR on January 30, 2017, 10:28:51 PM
Quote from: deemery on January 30, 2017, 10:39:13 AM
Quote from: Oldguy on February 12, 2016, 11:39:34 AM
As far as nail holes, I guess it would depend on building age and if it had ever been painted or not and environmental exposures.  As to the corners, it can go either way depending upon the builders preference.  From Shorpy, here is an old farm house where the nails are very evident and the corners have been treated both ways.   A lot of details in this little photo.

(http://modelersforum.com/gallery/88-120216113501.jpeg) (http://modelersforum.com/gallery/88-120216113501.jpeg)
Until I saw this photo, I would have said, "You're doing it wrong."  Now I'll say, "They did it wrong." :-)


dave


So who is going to come out with a kit of this structure?
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: Zephyrus52246 on January 31, 2017, 07:33:20 AM
John, it's mentioned in the Hilltown kit by Bob VanGelder, but I don't know that he sold them.  He notes  http://www.radubstore.com to obtain it, I think I got mine at  http://www.mmodelstore.com/rb-t010.aspx   . 


Jeff
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: S&S RR on January 31, 2017, 08:44:43 AM
Quote from: Zephyrus52246 on January 31, 2017, 07:33:20 AM
John, it's mentioned in the Hilltown kit by Bob VanGelder, but I don't know that he sold them.  He notes  http://www.radubstore.com (http://www.radubstore.com) to obtain it, I think I got mine at  http://www.mmodelstore.com/rb-t010.aspx (http://www.mmodelstore.com/rb-t010.aspx)   . 


Jeff


Jeff


I knew there was a connection to Bob.  Anyway for those that are interested we now have a source. Thanks Jeff.
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: JusticeCity on February 03, 2019, 05:49:37 PM
I love the effect rusty nail holes make. I have photographed buildings from 1/4 mile away and I can see the effect of nail holes. They produce nice plumps of dark grey staining sliding down the clapboard. From that you can see where the nails holes were/are. So are nail holes important? Yes, but for weathered paint free old wood. If newish painted clapboards, your choice.
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: hairball on January 03, 2020, 11:20:11 AM
I do not think I have built a wood clapboard or board and batton sided wall WITHOUT NAIL HOLES since 1988.   Mikie likes them and gives that added bit of detailing that makes your model stand out.

I believe I bought my set of 3 from VINTAGE REPRODUCTIONS ?? in Colorado after looking at their advert in a NGSLG magazine in the late 80 's .  I used them in HO and now O.

mike lynch..HAIRBALL
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: hairball on January 03, 2020, 07:49:59 PM
a few pictures of my john allen style EH o scale scratch showing the nail head impressions applied with pounce wheel.  Be boring structure without the nail holes and the lifted clapboards

mike................HAIRBALL
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: NEMMRRC on January 04, 2020, 08:10:18 AM
I don't always add nail holes to the kits I build. But when I do, I use The Monster Nailer (no longer in production).


Jaime
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: Dave K. on January 04, 2020, 08:19:20 AM
My fave nail hole tool, along with the one from RB.
Title: Re: Nail holes in clapboard siding
Post by: NEMMRRC on January 04, 2020, 03:59:20 PM
Quote from: Dave K. on January 04, 2020, 08:19:20 AM
My fave nail hole tool, along with the one from RB.
Thanks for the gift. I use it still to this day.


Jaime