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Forum Boards => Rolling Stock => Topic started by: tct855 on May 12, 2017, 08:08:38 PM

Title: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 12, 2017, 08:08:38 PM
Hello all,
          Thought I'd try something new?  A current build I'm working on this week.  From the ground up.  Test your eye skill level to see what it is I'm building, what material, what era, what model, what road, what history follows this Engine?

I won't say till the end unless someone guess' all 6 questions, then I'll come clean.  Oh the best part.  There's a prize!  Yes, you can guess that too!  Good luck!  :)  First pic, these wheels are painted black with a gold or brass metallic stripes.  Air brushed all except the center black stripe on the counter weights.  Can you guess how?   Thanx Thom...


 
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: Zephyrus52246 on May 12, 2017, 08:26:01 PM
Similar wheels to Engine 999 of the NYC.  It hauled the Empire State Express, reaching a record 112.5 mph on May 10, 1893.  It has been preserved at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago.  Are you going to hand build this out of brass?


Jeff






Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 12, 2017, 08:37:04 PM
Similar wheels to Engine 999 of the NYC.  It hauled the Empire State Express, reaching a record 112.5 mph on May 10, 1893.  It has been preserved at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago.  Are you going to hand build this out of brass?


Jeff


















Damn it!  R.U. kidding me? That's a stupid first guess.  Yes! That's correct!  Ok smarty pants, How did I paint the wheels and stripes with only an airbrush?  T...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: halrey on May 12, 2017, 08:40:37 PM
Very carefully?
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 12, 2017, 08:43:22 PM
Very carefully?







Hal,
       Ha, yes it was a little time consuming. but that's not it!...............  Thanx Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 12, 2017, 11:16:19 PM
Hi all,
        Okay, so Dr. Jeff is spot on!  The man knows his engines!  The model is a older brass Gem model with little detail.  I'm rebuilding this engine (1 of 2) for a customer who's modeling the early era version.  Loosely based off the brass model.

I'm keeping it DC, adding some new upgrades and some cast and hand built detail brass parts, custom painting, custom decals.  My goal is to keep it simple (low cost) but allow for some interesting overall flavor of this historic locomotive.

I'll give some brief descriptions to go along with the pictures on the build.  I hope this simple brass build holds your interest to the end.  So another hint on the Wheels:  Airbrushed painted stripes, no tape or masking used. It's an old technique.  (a lost art).

Any thoughts?  Thanx Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: jerryrbeach on May 13, 2017, 07:51:14 AM
Thom,
Looking forward to your re-work of this engine, hopefully some of your techniques will apply to my non-brass engines.
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: deemery on May 13, 2017, 08:25:23 AM
I have one of those "999" put away, it's a bit beat up, so I'll be very interested to see what you do here!


dave
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: postalkarl on May 13, 2017, 10:18:49 AM
Hi Thom:

I just can't wait to see what you do with this one. I shall be following along.

Karl
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: Zephyrus52246 on May 13, 2017, 11:22:11 AM
Sorry to ruin your fun, Thom, but the second I saw the picture, I thought of it.  Must be from all the trips to Science and Industry when I was a kid.   ;D


Jeff
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 13, 2017, 11:29:56 AM
Jerry, Dave, Karl,
           
           Here;  catch the rope!  You're welcome to tag along!  Thanx  Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 13, 2017, 11:33:21 AM
Sorry to ruin your fun, Thom, but the second I saw the picture, I thought of it.  Must be from all the trips to Science and Industry when I was a kid.   ;D


Jeff




Jeff,

           Ha, no worries!  It's a easy find if one knows what he's looking at.   Here! I got more rope, tag along.  Signed- Out Smarted...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: Donato on May 13, 2017, 02:43:36 PM
Sorry to ruin your fun, Thom, but the second I saw the picture, I thought of it.  Must be from all the trips to Science and Industry when I was a kid.   ;D


Jeff




Jeff,

           Ha, no worries!  It's a easy find if one knows what he's looking at.   Here! I got more rope, tag along.  Signed- Out Smarted...


Rope is O.K. just as long as you don't use ....


(https://thumb9.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/1375057/294477662/stock-photo-old-chains-or-shackles-used-for-locking-up-prisoners-or-slaves-between-and-294477662.jpg)
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 13, 2017, 07:53:56 PM
Hey modelers,
       
           Okay, so I guess since no one attempted to answer the question on how I painted the stripes on each spoke of the wheels with an airbrush and no paint brush and no masking.  That must  mean you modeling Einstein's already knew the answer.

 I did another engine many years ago on the old forum. http://www.kitforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15986



This model is for the same customer as the others.  The process is the same.  I hand cleaned & filed each spoke as close to the center as I could get.  Then sprayed the front with etching primer first, then spray the accent color on. Baked dry, then sprayed on the black from the rear of the wheel spraying left/right/up/down on each spoke.  Taking my time is key.  Now you know the rest of the story!  Thanx Thom... The trucks are next!
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: GPdemayo on May 14, 2017, 09:11:55 AM
Neat trick Thom.....I'll be watching.  8)
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 14, 2017, 04:43:55 PM
Neat trick Thom.....I'll be watching.  8)







Thanks man!  I hope I can deliver.  Thanx Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 14, 2017, 04:59:02 PM
Hi all,
           So the frame pilot was filed to remove some remaining flashing, and I took two brass air hoses and made up two air lines and soldered on top & up to the steam chest.  Next I painted the steam chest (less the accent color at this time) and checked and polished the slides.

Next I painted, checked & adjusted the screws on the truck side frames so the pivoting was smooth. I tried to paint the accent color on side, but found I couldn't tape that small without the paint leaking under.  So I used brass colored decals to somewhat follow the original accent highlights.  Oh yeah, here's a pic of the prototype for reference. Thanx Thom...



Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 14, 2017, 06:11:25 PM
Hi all,
            Next I cleaned up the tender frame and added a brass air hose to rear and painted both.

Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 14, 2017, 06:14:15 PM
Next,
          Then I cleaned & painted the tender & painted the tender water valves.
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 14, 2017, 06:19:58 PM
So for reference,
 
             Here are a couple pics which compare before & during cleaning & prepping of the tender.  Note: any scratches or bright spots is the removal of extra solder by the factory.
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 14, 2017, 06:28:03 PM
Then,

            I cleaned & prepped the the superstructure & painted. Note the minimal details (or lack there of) so I made and added a few like the side boiler relief valve and piping on both sides and a small cab apron to help hide the drawbar assembly. As you can see from the shiny or scratch marks, a lot of extra solder blobs removed which was left on the model by the factory.

 
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 14, 2017, 06:31:06 PM
Next,
             I needed to upgrade the removal of the open skew motor in the cab to some kind of backhead and some detailing that might be seen to help with adding some overall detail why helping to keep the cost low.  One note, here is a before pic of the superstructure before I started prepping.  Notice the poor factory paint & wearing paint on the running boards.
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: RWL on May 15, 2017, 07:43:05 AM
Thom,


Which paint scheme of this engine are you doing, the original, or the museum version?


Bob
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: jerryrbeach on May 15, 2017, 07:44:58 AM
Thom,
Looks great!  Thanks for the before and after photos, as well as the thought behind the process.
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 15, 2017, 07:47:14 AM
Thom,
Looks great!  Thanks for the before and after photos, as well as the thought behind the process.






Thank you Jerry!  I'll try to keep all interested while completing it in our lifetime. Thanx Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: ACL1504 on May 15, 2017, 07:51:00 AM
Thom,

I'm just now getting caught up on the thread.

You really did a fantastic job on the wheel pin stripping. It seems to me that hand painting the spokes would have been easier and would have given you more control over where the spray paint fell.

You had to do the counter weights and tire rims by hand any way.

Really a fantastic job all the way around my friend.

Tom ;D
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 15, 2017, 08:09:04 AM
Thom,


Which paint scheme of this engine are you doing, the original, or the museum version?


Bob


Bob,
          Great question!   When I first was handed the keys to this project I knew somewhat of the history of the engine and the current museum pictures. However what makes your question so interesting is while researching the details on the locomotive for the model.

I went to the internet and start capturing all the pics & articles I could find.  Boy,  I found over the years, there was several engines and even a couple rebuilds of the same engines.  All with different details and accent painting.

So upon closer looking at the two different manufactured models I have for this double project, the customer is really cool.  He's only looking for a overall flavor of the historic.  He simply wanted his take on each engine.

The first (current) model version is following a overall view of the late 1800's take. Here's just one of the pictures I have and from one of the really vague written descriptions of the engine I'm following what the customer told me he has an idea of what he wants it to look like.

The next model's version is going to be similar, but painted a little different.  Of course I have to keep it all at a reasonable cost take off due to the course lack of good detail models. I'll hopefully do this model a positive build.   

Hope this helps!  Thanx Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 15, 2017, 08:23:02 AM
Thom,

I'm just now getting caught up on the thread.

You really did a fantastic job on the wheel pin stripping. It seems to me that hand painting the spokes would have been easier and would have given you more control over where the spray paint fell.

You had to do the counter weights and tire rims by hand any way.

Really a fantastic job all the way around my friend.

Tom ;D




Tom,
          Thanks for the following along and the nice comments.  You are right, the counter weights are the toughest part.  I first tried painting by hand but the old gold or brass floquil paint wanted to take off and run or wanted to blob up in pyles.  What a pain.

So I did it in reverse and on the counter weights I didn't have Hal makeup counter weight decals (I'm stupid) so I had to paint the black stripe by hand.  I found two problems.  One, for some reason my trimning of tape so small kept bleeding under and painting by hand I found I'm now getting old and my hands are starting to shake with a few hair brush. (results from sniffing solvents so long) ha.

So my days of hand painting highlights are coming to a close I guess.  I've got a couple new ideas I'll try on the next engine so I think I can do better.  For now I'm not going to complain to much because some of these older castings are so damn crude with air holes, pits and poor detail lines in which to actually paint straight.

Another thing to consider when reworking older cheaper models of yesteryear!  Thanx Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: RWL on May 15, 2017, 12:00:52 PM
Thom,


Thanks for the clarification of the engine version, from your explanation and the following paragraph describing the owner;


"So upon closer looking at the two different manufactured models I have for this double project, the customer is really cool.  He's only looking for a overall flavor of the historic.  He simply wanted his take on each engine."



Therefore you will not be following a prototype version of the engine, but creating a facsimile of an engine during that time frame. That leaves you a large amount of latitude, you can get really creative. Good luck with the projects I will be following.


Bob
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: RWL on May 15, 2017, 12:13:53 PM
Let me try that again!


Thom,


Thanks for the clarification of the engine version, from your explanation and the following paragraph describing the owner;
"So upon closer looking at the two different manufactured models I have for this double project, the customer is really cool. He's only looking for an overall flavor of the historic. He simply wanted his take on each engine."


Therefore you will not be following a prototype version of the engine, but creating a facsimile of an engine during that time frame. That leaves you a large amount of latitude, you can get really creative. Good luck with the projects, I will be following.


Bob


Without the paragraph reference, it was  ,,,  what is he saying.
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 15, 2017, 04:36:14 PM
Bob,
          Yes, what you said, and what you said! ha.  It's not my build but rather what my customer is looking for and remembering at $35.00 an hour (old rate when I started) I need to make the basic upgrade of a motor and gear box which I'll be listing soon on.

Now the second model is going to be lettered the same, but will have some different details and paint scheme.  I commend my customer for setting his own standards, and doing it in DC only.   I do have 3 more models of this engine and hope to make at least one of them a very close clone of one of the early type locomotive's with Dcc of course.

I will most likely spare no expense or hours since it will be my own. However, one can give back, product, money, parts, apologies, models and even idea's, but one can't give back time. (except only H.G. Wells) So I'll need to watch mine in the future. ha. 

This will be a simple build, with simple upgrades and have some simple details added to give the overall model some interest to the customer.  I don't normally show or even take the time to record a customer build, but again like I said in the beginning this was something a little different and I know there are a lot of model owners out there who might find this interesting.

For the one or two viewers who happen to still be around at the end, I will hopefully have a interesting surprise to show once the model is completed.  Thanx Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: jimmillho on May 15, 2017, 04:43:51 PM
Now I know that I will be around at the finish of this build.

Jim
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 15, 2017, 04:58:51 PM
Now I know that I will be around at the finish of this build.

Jim





Jim,
           Donnnnnn't threaten meee!  ;)  Thanx Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: jimmillho on May 15, 2017, 07:03:51 PM
At my age that is not a threat, that's a promise ;D ;D ;D ;D

Jim
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 17, 2017, 09:53:12 AM
Hi all,
           I'm sorry that I have to put this build on a hold for a few months.  My condo association has a mandatory building upgrade next month.  They are replacing the the roof, skylights, siding, windows, doors, patio shed & fences & all inside casings.  I'm making Lemonaid by packing up & repainting the whole inside while this rebuild is going on.  I will pick this up in a few months.  Thanx Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: postalkarl on May 17, 2017, 11:09:25 AM
Hi Thom:

What can I say but WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are a master at what you do. I very much enjoy watching your builds.

Karl
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 17, 2017, 05:58:58 PM
Hi Thom:

What can I say but WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are a master at what you do. I very much enjoy watching your builds.

Karl



Karl,
       Thanks for the nice comments.  Your check is in the mail.  I hoped I might finish before the packing, but found I was wanting to rush on the model... that's a no no!  Time to slowwww down. Thanx Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: Mkrailway on May 17, 2017, 09:09:15 PM
Thom, been following along in the background lurking to see how a pro does it. You have set a goal fir me to aim for sone day.
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 19, 2017, 12:44:32 PM
Thom, been following along in the background lurking to see how a pro does it. You have set a goal fir me to aim for sone day.







Marty,
            Thank you for lurking as well.  Hope I can keep everyone interested for a while.  Thanx Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 19, 2017, 12:57:09 PM
Hi all,
          Ok so been packing up for a few days now. Goshhhhh, that sucks big time.  No not done, not even close, but close enough for a break.  Here are a few more pics which I already took to leave you with until I return or either take another break from packing etc. 

So notice below I added the copper side piping with the brass relief valve on both sides and polished the bell and installed.   Also started the appling the teeny weeny little tiny line decals (not set or sealed yet). Whoa, I need a drink just to say all that.  This decaling is going to be a challenge for me.  I hope I don't screw it up. I only got two sets.  The windows will be the interesting part for sure. Thanx Thom...

Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on May 19, 2017, 01:07:41 PM
Here again,
                  So with regards to the motor and gearbox.  I've been going to NorthWest Short Line for many decades and had Dave & Derrell build me compressed or a short motor setup for tight clearance boilers.  This is something I leave to the experts at N.W.S.L. & http://www.7thstreetgroups.com/shops/7th_Street_Shops_Custom_Painting.htm  for my help. 

The following pics show the motor/gearbox setup and with my custom brass built motor mount with spring screw which allows for all necessary motor flexing.  Hope this gives an idea or two on little engine builds for you lurkers out there!  ;)  Thanx Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: ACL1504 on May 19, 2017, 01:08:08 PM
Thom,

Wow, outstanding craftsmanship my friend.

Talk about setting the bar over and beyond. I venture to say not only does your customer have great taste but deep pockets as well.

There is no way I would even attempt to do that type of work.

YOU ARE THE MAN FOR SURE!

Tom with no skills. 8) 8)
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: jimmillho on May 19, 2017, 02:46:04 PM
What Tom said. 

I would not try that even if it was a Kit.

Jim (with less skill )
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: Donato on May 19, 2017, 03:30:21 PM
WoW!!


Donato (with NO skills)
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on September 09, 2017, 01:22:24 PM
Hi all,
         Okay, I'm over the house reno and back to modeling again.  Here's a couple still work in progress pics of where I'm at currently.  I've installed four working led marker lights, Led headlight with micro diode rectifier and micro resistors.

Installed all wheel pickups & completed the decals (what a tiny nightmare) those were!  All that's left is to wire up the motor leads and add a micro connector on the engine side to the tender, install bell/whistle cords (wire) and one final coat of dull (like my personality).  ;D

I'll have some better pics later when completed.  As for the 2nd model.  I've solder tightened any loose parts and painted the two colors and are at the regearing/motor install stage.  Pics to follow.  Thanx Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: GPdemayo on September 10, 2017, 08:52:30 AM
Neat..... 8)
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: Donato on September 11, 2017, 03:35:30 PM
What he said...!!
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on September 11, 2017, 09:15:51 PM
Thanks for the neat comments, ;D
            Here are the final pics of the Gem Models 4-4-0 DC rebuilt.  Custom Highball Graphics, N.W.S.L. custom motor/gearbox, 4 continuous working LED markers, continuous working LED Headlight, Backhead & details, all wheel pickups, full articulated tender trucks, cab chairs w/engineer/fireman, working bell w/wire cord, removable coal load & track power tender wire connectors added.  (excuse the dust on model) (I forgot to brush before pics). On behalf of the band and myself, Hope we passed the audition!  Well that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.   Thanx Thom... P.S. For me, this was a tough tough build, but very rewarding now that it's completed. ha. Now on to the second custom 4-4-0 build.
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: jbvb on September 11, 2017, 11:31:38 PM
Interesting, particularly the drive. I've got a B&M A-41f 4-4-0 imported by PFM long ago, in pieces after being stripped.  The original was bad enough that MR knocked it in Trade Topics! When layout work eases off a bit, I need to decide which issues I'll fix and which I'll live with.  If I can't make it haul two Ambroid cars up a 1% grade it's doomed to be a roundhouse queen.
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on September 11, 2017, 11:57:45 PM
James,
          I feel your pain on your PFM 4-4-0.  I have an old one also.  On mine I noticed the cylinder saddle is way undersized, and the frame is bent upwards so it would actually meet the boiler.  The tender's trucks have journal boxes that stick out little beyond the side of the tender (not perfectly to scale).

I'll need to change both motor/gearbox setup.  Other than the usual things.  It's got nice detailing throughout.  I won't get to mine for some time.  Let me know how your rebuild goes. 

The motor gearbox design is the only way I've been able to repower all the 0-4-0t's, 4-4-0's, 2-6-0's, 4-6-0's etc. Derrell at N.W.S.L. custom builds each one ordered, but it's what one needs to fit in those little tight engines and still be able to keep the backhead. ha. Thanx Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: bparrish on September 12, 2017, 01:49:41 AM
Thom....

Your photos above with the motor shaft pressed onto the worm gear is genius.

That is not hard to do ..........  I need to remember that.  It's all about setting up bushings that will get you from the motor shaft to the worm.  Not that complicated.

I'm only upset because I didn't think of it.

thanx
Bob
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: 7thStreetShops on September 12, 2017, 12:41:33 PM
Thom, Wow! that turned out "sweet", my friend! Beautiful Job! Got a video cam? I'd love to see it running.

I think we modelers sometimes forget that the Laws of physics are oblivious of scale. What I mean by that; a 1/16" error in 1:1 scale might be acceptable but as things get smaller, say down to 1/87 scale 1/16th becomes .0007". Can you work to those tolerances? I can't. My lathe and mill goes down to .001" and I have to guess at what is between each tick mark. There are computer controlled machines that can achieve these kinds of tolerances, but I can't afford those. And when you are talking about degrees and radial measurements - as in quartering drivers - the issue becomes even more acute. One degree in 1/87th scale becomes half a flea whisker on a 57" driver. I can't see a whole whiskery let alone a half.

To compensate, model manufacturers add slop to other parts of a mechanism. Where the prototype might have 1/16 play in the side rod pin holes HO models often have an inch (scale) of play to compensate for the margin of error in the driver quartering. And some people, in frustration (raises hand), finally resort to making that margin even larger - even tho they adamantly oppose touching the pinholes in side rods (keep in mind driver quartering is only ONE reason why driver quartering is incorrigible).

Uh- unless you know what you are doing - or unless the holes are (wore) elliptical - DON'T DO THAT!

When you are talking about motors and gearboxes the issue is still physics and tolerances. You have about 2 to 4 thousandths of an inch of run out between 2 Mod .3 gears and about 1/2 degree off of wobble before you start getting the dreaded wahh-wahhh-wahhhhh and an inconsistent rotation of the assembly! Antecedent to a Swiss watch mechanism.

A long motor shaft and gear box shaft are best for several reasons but primarily because it is a lot easier to place each on the same exact axis. But when you cut that down to just enough length for the bearings and worm - YIKES! The hole in the worm just about has to be an exact fit to the shaft diameter. ANY variation in the shaft axis and the centerline of the worm and the skewing causes the worm and worm gear to mesh inconsistently. ...wahh-wahhh-wahhhhh...

In our case the worms were custom drilled to the closest match we could get to the shaft diameters and in some cases we have to use the worm as a friction coupler of 2 shafts because the newest motors do not have shafts long enough to hold a bearing on the opposite side of the worm.

Uh... did I say Yikes! ?

BTW you better have an idler made of plastic in the gearbox so your DCC decoder doesn't have a direct electrical path from the motor control circuit to the track.

I don't know most modelers but the indicators I see on a regular basis is that changing gear boxes in a steam locomotive is a complete mystery to them... so they model diseas-els. Nothing wrong with that. Flanges and rail. That's what it's allllll about; flanges and rails. 

Derrell
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on September 12, 2017, 04:19:29 PM
Bob,
       Thank's for the compliment.  Also what Derrell is saying (partly) is when I use to have the old 16x30 can motors they had bigger double shafts.  So press fitting a worm and bearing right up next to the motor was doable 7 out of 10 times for me.  (yup i bent a few shafts).

All done on that side but the next side would be more exacting due to the motor leads were right there!

Now since the new motors came out.  They are even more difficult due to the shaft is even smaller (easier to bend) and shorter which means the other side of the gear box bearing is only receiving a tip of the shaft when (if lucky to press on without bending) on.

Bob you are a modeler of many talents.  You might be able to do it.  Me?  No way!  That's why I buy lottery tickets, beer, and hookers for Derrell.  So he'll do up a dozen or so at a wack.  Did I mention, he hates me.   ;D  Thanx Thom...

P.S. Derrell yes on the video, when I finish off the second one. Then I'll do together.  T...


BTW, the winner of the bragging rights goes to the first replier Dr. Jeff-Zephyrus52246  He's the brainiac.  Congrates Jeff.   Here's your sign!
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: bparrish on September 12, 2017, 04:27:17 PM
Derrell..

Thanx for the information.  I couldn't do some of the trolley and small steam loco's in HO without the consistency of manufacturing from NWSL.  They are great.

Your remarks about pin holes in side rods are spot on..........  I tend to make my frame dimensions so tight that it demands really accurate side rods.  I think some of the import manufacturers have so much slop that you can assemble it from across the room.......... sorta like throwing darts.

I am aware that the smaller the gauge the more critical the fit really is.   When I built the Falk loco (see thread elsewhere on this forum) some years ago, G scale made it seemed like it was much more forgiving of quartering.  I had built a quartering jig out of four steel carpenter squares, sandwiched together.  It worked and I was able to run really tight pin holes. 

Again......thanx
Bob
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: bparrish on September 12, 2017, 06:23:35 PM
Thom...

I need to know how you striped the wheels.

thanx
Bob
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on September 12, 2017, 08:29:54 PM
Bob,
      Page 1 about midway down.


Hey modelers,
       
           Okay, so I guess since no one attempted to answer the question on how I painted the stripes on each spoke of the wheels with an airbrush and no paint brush and no masking.  That must  mean you modeling Einstein's already knew the answer.

 I did another engine many years ago on the old forum. http://www.kitforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15986



This model is for the same customer as the others.  The process is the same.  I hand cleaned & filed each spoke as close to the center as I could get.  Then sprayed the front with etching primer first, then spray the accent color on. Baked dry, then sprayed on the black from the rear of the wheel spraying left/right/up/down on each spoke.  Taking my time is key.  Now you know the rest of the story!  Thanx Thom... The trucks are next!



Hope this helps!  Thanx Thom...
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: 7thStreetShops on September 13, 2017, 12:11:59 PM
More about the Wah-wahh-wahhhh effect. Experience Tells me that any variation from "perfect" can cause a faulty mechanism (perfect being both the theoretical and practical operative here). Variation from perfect; meaning precisely aligned shafts, true perpendicular in all cases necessary, and exact matches between quartering degree AND the equation of C-C of axles to C-C of side rod pin holes in all cases.

We depend upon the maker of the engine to ensure that the C-C equation as well as the matched quartering are dead on - and I mean DEAD on! There is very, very little margin of error especially in the smaller scales. We also, to a lesser degree, depend on them to place the gearbox and motor properly. But since these are relatively easy to replace we can take over that responsibility when they did a poor job (by faulty practices such as floating motor shafts with open worm axle gear "non-box" gear arrangements). It is still a precision job, nevertheless, so knowing a few principles helps us to attain that.

Since I've already discussed to some degree those principles I'll go on to my point.

The Wahhh-wahhhh-waarrrgh effect (hereafter "www" since it's a pain to get all those "h"s right) is simply a function of the variation of friction during the rotation of any of the several wheels (either gears or divers) and their relationship to the provided power or torque involved. A small motor will be more effected by slight variations in friction than a larger motor. The obvious get-away-with-it answer would seem to be a bigger motor (and making sure like materials such as brass against brass do not occur). AND liberal amounts of lubricant.

However the correct fix is to find and mitigate the friction; the consideration of the size of the motor should be secondary to removing any variations in friction. A big motor will still be effected by the variation but as I've described elsewhere the results of a big motor just bullying the www can wind up with stripped gears or gears worn so badly they make it impossible to fine tune the running into "perfect".

If you decide to replace a motor and gearbox (what I call the power train) on a steam loco make it your priority to insure there is as little friction, and especially friction variation, as possible. When you assemble a gearbox it should first make a single rotation around the shaft (holding the shaft and turning the gearbox) to assert that the single lead worm is good (2 rotations for a double lead worm), then, connect a power source to the shaft, assert that there isn't any variation thru the entire rotation of the worm gear (number of revolutions equal to the number of teeth) and then with the gearbox mounted to the axle that there isn't any www thru the entire rotation of the axle gear. Doing this with little or no lubrication to the gearbox is more assuring than soaking the gearbox with oil - it is easier to detect variations by feeling as well as observation. Even a small amount of consistent friction is better than www.

Gear boxes and power trains do tend to get better if the friction is consistent and of a reasonably small degree. Even variable friction will tend to lessen with run in time. But you can never "ware in" bad gear relationships. They will ware each other out!

If you find a problem with one of the wheels it is easiest, and frankly the only solution in most cases, to replace that wheel. However you may find that replacing a wheel, such as the idler gear makes no difference. Don't be afraid to "correct" the bearing; parts are not really that expensive in contrast to a poor job driving you nuts for years of poor operation.

If you install a perfectly running gear box into a bare bones frame and then find that it doesn't run perfectly when you install the rest of the power train and or frame mechanism you can at least recognize that any problems are in the motor or completed mechanism. The mechanism of the frame (valve gear main rods cross heads etc.) OR motor mounting are then suspect so leave the gear box alone and move on to mitigating any further causes of friction variation. With mechanisms every single animated point or component is suspect. No matter how complex look at EVERYTHING. If the motor appears to be the problem and you know it's a good motor look very critically at the shaft alignment to the gearbox shaft.

Enough said.

Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: bparrish on September 13, 2017, 02:52:45 PM
Derrell...

I read all of Mel Thornberg's stories in MR about building a locomotive on your kitchen table with simple tools.  That worked then because we modeled on the premise that if it moved it was OK.  We have much higher demands today.

In all of his stories he never said how to calculate the pin holes on the rods. I think he assumed something that I was slow in coming to.  Centers are centers ! ! !

Some years later I came with a simple measurement to solve this.  Measuring by holding a caliper over what looked like the center of a notch in the frame is just not accurate enough.  With a vernier caliper, measure the overall space between the axle notches, far side to far side.  Then measure an axle and subtract the diameter of one axle.  That will be the center of the axles on the frame and the length of the side rod C to C.

Again.. thanx for you information.

see ya
Bob
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: tct855 on September 14, 2017, 09:50:03 AM
Just as an FYI:

Derrell now uses on the newer (smaller) motor shaft loctite to secure the (slightly larger) worm on the shaft.  Which is the best method to press fitting the motor and gearbox together.  T...

Have you seen the new Loctite Train commercial?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFpcmqQ_7CQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bSjVFawpqs
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: 7thStreetShops on September 14, 2017, 02:52:37 PM
Bob,

most modeling builders emphasize the practice of drilling all the plates of the Frame and Side rods as one soldered together assembly and then building the frame on a squaring assembly. Watch British modelers for best examples.

Replacing worn out side rods or rods wrong to begin with is very intense as their is no margin for error. Your description is pretty much what must be done and even then you will likely have to put more slop in the pin holes.

Thom, Locktite - WwwwWWWOOOWWWwwww!

NWSL is a Locktite Dealer.
Title: Re: Mystery Engine build???
Post by: LongHornCaddy on September 14, 2017, 02:59:51 PM
Wow, nice job!
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