At the last Expo, Bob Leonard (RWL) and I had a very lengthy conversation about the old thread I did on the subject named above. My comment and thought process was to have all those interested parties be referred to the old thread. However, I see that all the photos on the old thread are gone and no longer can be accessed. This may have happened when Jimmy D. had the big server crash. Not sure but that was then and this is now.
I'm not entirely sure who all on this forum are brass aficionados or have worked, repaired, painted brass as it is becoming a lost art of sorts.
I know Bob Leonard(RWL), Karl Scholtz(postalkarl), Thom (tct855) and I have all painted and worked on brass at one time or another. Thom is the one who is lucky enough to paint and weather the F&SM locos for George Sellios.
I want to say that I'm certainly not an expert but I do know my way around brass and can make a fairly decent repair. So on to the re-posting of the original thread on Jimmy D's old forum. It's hard to believe the original thread was posted on September 2009.
Continued in a few.
I purchased and old brass 0-8-0 loco several months ago off Ebay and yes, it is most definitely a basket case. The loco came to me as you see it in the following pictures. The photos show the damage and what I needed to repair.
The front and rear foot boards were bent and broken off the frame. The cab roof was unsoldered and almost folded over onto itself or as least curled curlded on the sides. The drawbar was bent. The loco had no journal springs, no brake shows, a damaged steam chest and was extremely dusty! Also, there was no bottom underframe plate.
In one of the photos you can see a journal spring magnetized to the old open frame motor. The steam generator was bent forward and the old whistle needed to be upgraded.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-030116175701.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-030116175531.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-030116175515.jpeg)
Continued in a few.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-030116175644.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-030116175626.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-030116175552.jpeg)
I intend to make the repairs and install a new Sagami or equivolent can motor. I'll install DCC with sound. I'l use a Tsunami sound decoder for light steam locos. I'll strip and clean the locomotive and then paint it for the Seaboard Air Line. NOTE: I actually decaled it for the AB&C RR. The Atlanta Birmingham and Coast RR.
Also, I'll add a few detail items that most people and painters forget about installing on the loco to make it more realistic.
You are welcome to follow me in this quest and comments, positive or negative, are most welcome.
T~,
I remember this thread. Wow 2009 you say? Boy life is like a roll of toilet paper, the more you get into it, the faster it seems to go! Look forward to the refresh again on this build. Thanx Thom...
I remember this when you first did it, and I am going to watch it again 8) 8) 8) 8)
Jim
I've repaired and reworked a few brass locos for better operation, but nothing that had taken this kind of whack. I recall the original thread, but I'll be watching this one too.
I'll watch again also..... :)
Quote from: tct855 on January 03, 2016, 08:19:53 PM
T~,
I remember this thread. Wow 2009 you say? Boy life is like a roll of toilet paper, the more you get into it, the faster it seems to go! Look forward to the refresh again on this build. Thanx Thom...
Thom,
Thanks for checking on this thread as well. I like your toilet paper analogy.
Tom ;D
Quote from: jimmillho on January 03, 2016, 10:05:33 PM
I remember this when you first did it, and I am going to watch it again 8) 8) 8) 8)
Jim
Butty Jim,
Thanks for following along. I was looking at the loco the other day and couldn't remember all that I did do. It's a refresher for me as well. 8) 8) 8)
Tom ;D
Quote from: jbvb on January 04, 2016, 11:57:13 AM
I've repaired and reworked a few brass locos for better operation, but nothing that had taken this kind of whack. I recall the original thread, but I'll be watching this one too.
James,
Thanks for following along on the adventure for the second time. I actually forgot all the stuff I did to repair this one.
Tom ;D
Quote from: GPdemayo on January 04, 2016, 05:01:14 PM
I'll watch again also..... :)
Butty Greg,
Thanks for checking in and joining the train watching crew.
Tom ;D
Tom,
Thanks. ha. T.P.'s my friend. I guess it's because I'm sooo full of it. ha. I just love following threads where modelers work (create or repair) with brass! I'm all eyes & ears! Thanx Thom...
I frequently use my own forum postings as notes to my future self...
Quote from: jbvb on January 05, 2016, 11:29:09 AM
I frequently use my own forum postings as notes to my future self...
How very Marty McFly of you :-)
dave
Quote from: jbvb on January 05, 2016, 11:29:09 AM
I frequently use my own forum postings as notes to my future self...
James,
You have a point, I think I'll go back and print the treads that are detailed.
Tom ;D
This next portion of the old thread came as a response to a comment RWL, Bob Leonard, made concerning an issue he was cautioning on.
Bob,
Thanks for the comments and suggestion. I hadn't thought of the canter issue. That being said, I went to work on this right away. I spent most of the afternoon on checking the cantering issue. I used the NWSL Quatering Jig to check the four drivers and found them to be right on. The frame was true as well.
However, I needed to make a base plate and get a set of journal springs before I could go any further. I found in my old parts bin an old set of Akane springs I purchased about 25+ years ago. I was lucky here also as they were a perfect fit for this loco.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-070116103052.jpeg)
I then measured the bottom of the frame for the size I needed and scratched it in on a piece of heavy brass stock.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-070116103118.jpeg)
Continued in a few.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-070116103134.jpeg) (http://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-070116103134.jpeg)
I cut out the plate, cute and filed a hole for the gear opening and then drilled two holes for the screws that will hold the plate to the frame. I test fit it and then filed it smooth.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-070116103148.jpeg) (http://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-070116103148.jpeg)
The drivers were installed and the base plate screwed on the frame. I made a small motor mount from brass stock for motor I'll use on the loco. I don't know who made the motor but it came in a lot of motors I got off Ebay several years ago. It is quiet, smooth and powerful.
This is the best photo I have of the new motor mount and motor.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-070116104859.jpeg) (http://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-070116104859.jpeg)
More later this afternoon or tomorrow. Thanks for following along.
Tom
Tom....
A possible solution....
If the quartering is right.
My test is to remove the motor and cram a small very light screwdriver into the tube. Then turn the screwdriver to search for the bind. When it occurs, determine which is in the horizontal position. As in the photo above. That is the offending side.
While it is in the bind, inspect for a tight side rod. Once found, determine if the rod is binding on the long or the short of the offending rod. When opening the rod it is NOT about opening the entire hole. With a small round file, oval the hole in the necessary hole. Then retest.
If you want to see how loose these can be and still work, examine some production locos from BLI or Bachmann.
One more test. The tube can be the offender. Take it off and roll it on your bench. If it lopes it may be hardened enough in a bend to translate to a lope in the loco's operation. I convert most of these to NWSL U-joints. If you want to stay with tubing, use neoprene tubing from the model airplane boys.
I have run into many old brass locos that could never have run well. How could this be???? Easy, many were bought and never run by collectors. Many really did not run well anyway. The ones that did became the long running survivor companies. United, PFM, Halmark for example. Notice the absence ofAkane and Fuji, and Balboa which took a lot of tinkering to make run well. Most needed improved gear cases.
Hope this helps.
See ya
Bob
Tom...
I went back and looked at your photo again.
The two shafts, motor and gear case, are too close together. It's not allowing the tube any flex potential. The NWSL shaft is right out of box. Open the space to something approaching a quarter inch.
See ya
Bob
Tom,
Following Bob, he's right as well. To me I'm not a purist when it comes to brass. I want it to be bulletproof. So using modern parts or techniques on older brass is where I go. For example; your picture shows the motor shaft almost right up against the gearbox worm shaft, even at a slight angle which forces the tube to have to bend in the middle.
Tubes dry out or harden over time and also become soft or too flexible when heated. You have both those issues at play here. The aforementioned is air, the latter is motor shaft heat transfer. Say after running that engine pulling a train on a normal size layout during an open house, round n round for an 1/2 to 1 hour or more (it happens). Go put your fingers on the motor shaft-Ouch! it gets hot so that slowly softens the tubes which starts the breakdown process (air).
When needed I've cut down and polish either one or both or both shafts to accommodate u-joints or ball and cup connections etc. If the gear box needs to flex or move about to the motor (meaning it can because spring tension isn't too strong) then a shaft and sleeve type connection is added.
Keep in mind even with the plastic ball end connection (like on modern OMI diesel models) on the motor side shaft it still gets hot and metal expands which most likely is going to crack or split the thin plastic over time.
So I compensate for this by knurling or mahring the tip to give a little tooth and void for the part to expand and a place to contract to while on the shaft. I've never gotten any slippage from that procedure.
For me a little extra work from a newer way usually means your not going to have the same ol' problem from the traditional way. Again, I'm not a purist when building. I do see from your photos that everything else you are doing is the same as me. So I guess I've been doing it right which makes me feel good. ha.
My 2 cents, Keep going!, good stuff. I'm all eyes! Thanx Thom...
Bob and Thom,
Since you both had the same concerns and comments I thought I'd address you both here. Thank you both for taking the time to post the comments.
Remember this is a re-posting of a five year old thread at the request of other members on the forum.
In the photo you both are referring to concerning the motor and gear shafts being to long, that photo was just a reference photo to show the motor mount and the location of the motor. Both shafts were cut and de-burred later in the rebuild some five years ago. The axles were separated and the new motor and gear box run very well together and I've experienced no problems over the past five years.
The loco runs very well and quiet.
As far as the bind, you got a little ahead of the build. I'd plan to address that issue in the next posting.
Continued in a few.
Hey Boss,
Ha, Got it. ha. I got excited and forgot. Ok I'll sit down and shut and watch the rest of the movie. May the force be with us... Thanx Thom...
To test the smoothness of the drivers, I set the loco on a section of track without the motor and gear box attached. I then push it down the track by pushing from the rear of the loco or frame. I've found that I can see any bumps in the wheels and feel any resistance of any kind by doing this. This test proved to be fine but it was only the first test I do when working with brass. The real test is doing the same on a pane of glass.
Over the past 25+ years of working with brass and checking for binds in the side rods, I've found the glass test to be the most beneficial. If all is true in the side rods and wheels, the loco will roll smoothly and straight on the glass. If there is a bind in the loco side rods or any type of resistance, the loco will roll to the left or right depending on the side of the bind. I considered myself very fortunate in that the glass test was a success. It rolled straight and true in a straight line on the glass. In some cases if there is a bind, the drivers will slide a little before the bind is overcome by the pushing motion. I do this test but forwards and in reverse.
Success, so it was time to move on.
Continued in a few.
The pilot on the loco was factory soldered to the loco frame but the front right step was broken/unsoldered.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-030116175644.jpeg)
I removed the step from the pilot, straightened the step and resoldered it to the frame. This was a small job so I used the Micro Torch from Micro Mark.
The front left step was bent so I used a small neddle nose plier to straighten it.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080116185416.jpeg)
Continued in a few.
Another broken piece was the steam chest. I repaired this part in the same session as the front steps.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080116185435.jpeg)
I use both the Micro Torch from Micro Mark as I mentioned as well as a resistance soldering unit. With the Micro Mark Torch is use the Tix solder and Tix liquid flux, both available from Micro Mark. The Tix solder is very soft and melts at under 275 degrees and holds up to 4,300 lbs. holding power. I only cut a small piece, about 1/16 or smaller as it is a very easy flowing solder. The flux washes off with warm water.
Continued in a few.
I'll go ahead and add this part to this thread. The first paragraph was trying to scrounge around to find parts and small screws for the side rods.
The second paragraph was in response to a comment as to why I do both the track and glass test.
I finally had time to get the main and side rods back on the loco. I had to scrounge around in the spare parts bin for three small driver screws for the side rods and found some that fit. I also had to find a tiny tiny screw for the eccentric crank. This is the very small screw that secures the eccentric crank to the main driver crank pin. I fond one of these little babies as well.
After getting all the rods back on the loco I performed the track and glass test. I got an IM/PM from Dave who asked me why I do both tests. The reason is very simple. The track test is good as the drivers have much more area for traction between the tires and track. The glass test is better as the drivers have only the flange on the glass for traction. As I mentioned before, the glass test will also show you how well you installed or repaired the side rods.
More this weekend.
Tom..
five years huh????
Well I fell for that !!!
Thanx
Bob
Quote from: bparrish on January 09, 2016, 02:32:46 AM
Tom..
five years huh? ???
Well I fell for that !!!
Thanx
Bob
Bob,
Yes, I did the original thread on the other forum. I wasn't trying to trick anyone and stated in the beginning of the thread it was a re-post.
I still appreciate the time you took to point out the problem. All your points were valuable and informative for others.
Thanks, much appreciated.
Tom ;D
I haven't forgotten this thread but I've been a bit busy. Other brass painting and detailing, Expo fun, layout work, planning for the photo backdrops and more layout work.
I'll try to get back to this later this afternoon.
Tom ;D
Just for the record, this is a rewrite of the repair from the old forum.
The tender rear steps were broken and the tender deck.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080116185513.jpeg)
The tender it self was removed along with the trucks. The repair was made using the small micro torch and Tix solder.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080116185638.jpeg)
Continued in a few.
The tender was repaired and is now level and looks good.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080116185656.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080116185712.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080116185735.jpeg)
Next came the cab roof repair. This was a real big pain in the A--. Thankfully, the cab sides were still solidly soldered to the cab base. I did straighten the front and rear cab walls a little.
It seems I remember now I lost the photos of the cab roof repairs. Here are the after roof repair photos.
BEFORE:
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-180416165901.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-180416170403.jpeg)
AFTER:
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-180416165829.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-180416165815.jpeg)
[/size]
[/size]
That's a good recovery on the roof. Do you ever anneal brass parts before straightening them?
Quote from: jbvb on April 21, 2016, 07:02:01 AM
That's a good recovery on the roof. Do you ever anneal brass parts before straightening them?
James,
Thanks for checking in on the thread. No, I never have. On the reshaping of this cab roof the brass was very soft. However, I did use two pair of needle nose pliers to shape the roof.
Not shown or discussed so much in the thread but I tried to match one side to the shape of the top of one side of the cab. I then slowly used the pliers and by trial and error, shaped the rest to fit. It worked out better than I expected.
I'll have a little more on this thread perhaps tomorrow evening.
Tom ;D
Tom
I really enjoy your threads on the brass locomotive repairs. One of these days I hope that I will be able to do this. But I need to get some track placed and running. so much to do.
From the beach in Cancun.
Quote from: sdrees on April 21, 2016, 07:55:22 PM
Tom
I really enjoy your threads on the brass locomotive repairs. One of these days I hope that I will be able to do this. But I need to get some track placed and running. so much to do.
From the beach in Cancun.
Steve,
From Cancun huh? Are you getting your hair "braided"?
As always, I very much appreciate your support and for following along. Getting track down will help the trains run better. LOL.
Tom ;D
After all the repairs were made, it was time to strip and paint. I won't go through all the steps necessary to prepare the brass for painting as you can read all about that from my other brass painting threads.
I do want to mention that the entire hanger assembly is "riveted" together and can't be painted as a separate hanger bracket. This assembly was painted by hand, two coats one at a time, and baked between coats.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-220416124752.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-220416124807.jpeg)
Continued in a few.
I don't have enough hair to get braided. Anyway, I would a blond look with braided hair.
I made some all weather cab curtains out of Chili's Restaurant paper napkins.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-230416174937.jpeg)
I used regular sewing thread to tie the top and bottoms.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-230416174951.jpeg)
More in a few.
Once made, the curtains were painted with Floquil Earth and installed on the loco.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-230416175005.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-230416175016.jpeg)
Continued in a few.
I added two 2X6's to the top of the coal bunker so the loco could hold more coal.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-230416174912.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-230416175126.jpeg)