So I'm starting this thread because I have gotten caught up in making old trolley models run again. Most of the trolleys offered in the 1950's and early 60's had pretty cool superstructures but the drive mechanisms were boarder line junk. Most had 3 pole motors that only ran at the speeds we recall with the Athearn Hustlers; about 300 scale miles an hour.
I'll start with a project that I began yesterday and then go back and put up some photos of other trolleys that have been saved. I'll add some discussion about drive options available today and after that ........... who knows.
For now....
Below is a base plate that will fit a current production Labelle Sacramento Northern combine. It's rather generic and I'm going to modify it to be closer to a Chicago Aurora and Elgin car. The trucks are what make this a bit interesting. Labelle offers a drive unit and side frames but I found the trucks shown below in a local modeler's junk box. I could not walk away from them. I have no idea the manufacturer but is sure isn't Suydam.
The sub frame is brass stock and the step up at one end is to allow for the worm drive in the one truck. The powered wheels are driven by a clock work gear train down one side of the truck frame. I converted the old brass wheels to current production Precision Scale wheels and all are insulated. This is necessary because I run some of my trolleys on a common rail and pole power supply. It is really tough to insulate the poles from the body so I run the body connected to the pole and the wheels completely isolated. It works pretty well.
I'm part way into the wooden superstructure so that will come along in a time.
The motor shown is a NWSL motor and it will be cradled in on an angle so the U-joint shaft is straight from the motor to the worm shaft on the truck.
see ya
Bob
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The photos below are of last week's project where I retrofitted two Tenshodo Spuds into an old Kawai box motor that looks a lot like a Chicago Surface Lines freight motor.
The side frames are ancient Red Ball castings that are bolted to the Tenshodo bolsters.
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The switch shown below allows this box motor to run on two rail track with the pole down or common rail with the pole being the hot side. Running with the pole down is the only practical way of using any of these models in an operations session. You can't make the driver reverse the poles every time there is a direction change. All of the trolleys are fitted with DCC when completed.
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The finished box motor with the superstructure repairs.
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This is the wiring diagram that allows the two operations methods.
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This is a project from several years ago. I found an AristoCraft Birney model on ebay. When it arrived I quickly determined that this would NEVER operate on my railroad. It had a 3 pole motor and a wooden roof, and a pole fat enough to be O scale. It also scaled pretty large for HO.
So it sat for about five years. Then one day a modeler put up a photo of a Birney car that was converted to a diner. That was it ! ! ! !
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Here are two photos of a little cutie ! ! ! Can modelers say that word ? ? ?
I've never been quite sure who manufactured these but they turn up on ebay from time to time. My trolley modeler friend in town always calls unknown products from Japan as being made by the J.A. Pan company. I always find that funny.
It is only about 2 and 3/4 inches long and is only two wheel drive. I did get a decoder into it but the weight had to go on the bottom.
It can't jerk the fuzz off of a peanut but it is fun when I roll it out during an ops session.
It is the only trolley with the original motor. I couldn't get anything else in there.
see ya
Bob
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Some neat projects, especially the 'critter'. LokSound has sound decoder files for trolleys, ever thought of putting sound in one?
Jeff
Bob, Jeff,
Pretty cool projects for sure! I've been all eyes since the first post. You had me at brass! ha. Jeff is right Several good decoder makers have different good sounds for trolley's, electrics, etc. I just put in an electric Econami for a customer a couple months ago, and are currently working on two larger ones and later this summer will start two more for him as well plus I have a couple street flat car and electric crane cars to do towards the end of the year! All with sound of course. Here's a sample with sound. Thanx Thom...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXyeT1AT-xY
So I found the original photo that was up on the forum that started me on the Aristo Craft
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So here is what we are up against.
The J.A. Pan Company sent us tons of these cool trolleys with marginal (read junk) motors. Below are a few examples.
Most are three polls that need six or more volts and 200 + amps to get them started.
In the main.... most any of these can be converted to a can motor. A few require an entire new base plate to hold all of the stuff needed to make them go. Example is the Kawai shown first with the two Tenshodo Spud units. It was easier to take a .020" strip of brass and start over.
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The first practical trolley motor that was US built was the Pennsylvania Models company in the 50's. This was later pulled into Bowser and was modified and up dated.
These vertical motors ran reasonably well and if converted to nickle silver wheels actually run really well. The down side was that the motor needed to be completely disassembled to get it onto the sub frame plate. These motors were VERY sensitive to alignment. That is the upper insulated brush plate carried the upper shaft bushing and had no real aligning device to the lower bushing. Thus when reassembling, the only way you could feel if the shaft was free was to leave the brushes out and watch if the armature would spring back when turned manually from the magnet lobes. If it was that free then it had really good low speed operation and did not heat up much. It could take numerous tries to get it right when tightening it all up with the two body screws.
The later Bowser drive has solved all of this with what looks more like a Diesel model with a U-joint from a body mounted motor.
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This four wheel trolley is made by Orion and imported by NJ International. The dates on this are unclear but probably during the 1970's. The drive mechanism is much improved over earlier products and it had an open framed five pole motor that tried to run pretty good.
My experience with open framed motors in not good when mixed with DCC and decoders. I'm not sure what goes on but decoders will try and last for an unpredictable time and then the smoke leaks out. I wrote on compressed smoke some weeks ago.
The only thing I can sort out is that the open frame motor with the indirect magnet must have a lot of back EMF or just plain response hysteresis that the decoder at some time in the future gets tired of and goes to sleep.
It's not a function of stall amperage as I stall test all motors before lashing up to DCC. Nothing over an amp and a half. Most finish at about .8 of an amp in the small stuff that I run.
This little got a 15 mm can motor and it runs acceptably. it only has four wheel pickup so it is sort of fussy for no apparent reason. The down side of these models and other small products that use a KTM style drive is that the spur gears tend to crack after some time. They are pressed onto a knurled spot on the axle that tends to put them in a load. Hence the cracking.
This particular model has a 13 tooth spur gear and I don't have an indexing wheel that can get to a multiple of 13. I resorted to NWSL and it took an inquiry that is available on their home page. Dave Rygmyr runs the company and is pretty accessible when you call.
He had a gear that matched perfectly. An hour at the bench and this trolley was modernized.
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All this is really very educational.
Bob,
Great stuff here. I love the lighted Trolley Cafe. Just wonderful. Thanks for sharing the info with us on the trolley motors, very interesting.
Tom ;D ;D
Fascinating all the different types of motors/drives for those trolleys.
Jeff
So this is a Cincinnati prototype two motor trolley. Called a two motor as it has only one traction motor in each truck. The smaller wheel was placed out under the vestibule to lengthen the wheel base for a smoother ride in what would otherwise be a relatively short car. Rough rides are why the Birney safety cars were never real popular and an early casualty to complaints by riders.
Curiously the model manufacturer turned the trucks around and ran the large wheels on the outer ends of the car. I think it was an issue of practicality in making the model work at all.
The manufacturer is unknown other than another entry from the J. A. Pan company. I've seen a number of these but never an original box. I got this one in a batch of stuff that turned up from a local collector.
The one had a fairly good open frame motor suspended in the passenger area above the floor. It was mounted on an angle and had a rubber tube drive to only one truck. Thus this trolley only ran on one pair of wheels. Further this model was really given to torque load to one side when power was applied. This is sorta like the torque steering that a lot of early front wheel drive cars were fraught with......... especially Chrysler K cars when the sub frames started to sag a bit.
I wanted to have at least two axle drive so powering both trucks was a requirement. I was given a pair of later model trucks that both had a gear set. I changed out the wheels to nickle wheels from Precision Scale and insulted all wheels for the reasons noted above.
Then I had to find a really short can motor with some torque so I chose a 15mm x 15mm can motor. I put NWSL U-joints out both ends. I also made up bronze wipers for all wheels so it has 8 wheel electrical pickup. It actually tries to run pretty well.
To turn down some of the truck torque loading I moved the body mount bolster .040" toward the little wheel to apply a bit more weight on the non powered wheel set. It gained me some stability.
The electric pickup wipers are my own invention. It is a 1/8" square piece of .020" no hole PC board. On one side I solder two Kadee bronze centering springs from their #5 kits, one going in each direction. Also soldered to this is a wire that will go to the decoder harness. I then super glue this to the underside of the truck bolster and load the bronze wipers to the wheels. This works really well as I insulate all wheels from the trucks and body as noted above.
This one is waiting for the paint shop.
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This next was a fun project that I finished in January. In fact I completed two at the same time.
Bruce, tolley modeler here in Boise, had amassed enough parts several years ago so as to be able to build two of these. They are only marked EJH - England. I know nothing else of them and in fact I never saw the original drive mechanisms for them. The sub frames were gone and we only had the two super structures to start with.
We had two Tenshodo Spud drives and two NWSL Stanton drives so they got distributed out to each of these as pairs. When two drive trucks are used in these models they become surprisingly strong.
The one for Bruce is a pole only to common rail and mine was designed for two rail, no pole operation. Mine is lettered for my Boise Nampa and Owyhee railroad and his is marked for Avery Power and Light which is his wholly owned sub division of the electrified Milwaukee across nothern Idaho.
These little guys finished at under four inches long.
Shown below is the underside of the Stanton drive from NWSL. Look carefully and you can see the markings M1 and M2 on the retainer plate.
This is where the motor wires come to the retainer plate. The retainer is the PC board as they have designed this power truck. They have very good low speed operation and everything is wired to this retainer. What is necessary is a dab of super glue or epoxy over these M1 and M2 solder joints. They hang down a bit and if you are operating in DCC and the loco derails, one or the other of the M tabs can touch the rails. Decoders will absolutely lose it if track power signals come to the motor side of the decoder wiring. I let the smoke out of a T1 decoder before I figured this out. I contacted Dave Rygmyr and NWSL and he acknowledged that it was in fact an issue they had not considered in the original design. I have not seen one of his current products so I don't know if he is sealing off the M tabs in regular production now. Check if you use these drives.
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Great work Bob.....I really like the little trolley cars. 8)
The Kapton tape used for insulating decoders might also help protect the bottom of the circuit boards.
Quote from: bparrish on May 07, 2016, 01:58:10 AM
Here are two photos of a little cutie ! ! ! Can modelers say that word ? ? ?
I've never been quite sure who manufactured these but they turn up on ebay from time to time. My trolley modeler friend in town always calls unknown products from Japan as being made by the J.A. Pan company. I always find that funny.
It is only about 2 and 3/4 inches long and is only two wheel drive. I did get a decoder into it but the weight had to go on the bottom.
It can't jerk the fuzz off of a peanut but it is fun when I roll it out during an ops session.
It is the only trolley with the original motor. I couldn't get anything else in there.
see ya
Bob
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What is that underneath there Bob? it looks like a crystal out of an old radio.
-slim
Slim........
That sir is a wheel weight. I get the take off weights from tire shops every fall. I usually try to remind modelers on this forum to do this when people are changing over to winter tires. Those on the forum in Florida don't think of such things.
They are used once and then sent to recycling. Because of polished and coated mag wheels they don't use spring steel clips to hold them on. They use a double sided foam substance and it doesn't work a second time.
So what you are seeing is a 1/4 ounce lead weight. There was no space inside that little trolley.
Thanx for looking in.
Bob
James...
That is a great idea, using the tape stuff. I use 30" scale wheels so there isn't much space but that otta work.
I'm most of the way done on a Labelle D&GW doodle bug that will have a Stanton Drive in it. I'll check it out.
Thanx
Bob
I built two of these work flats about eight years ago. I found a picture of a crane flat in a Chicago Surface Lines book years before and just sort of mentally filed it away. I was in a conversation with my trolley cohort and he whipped two old lead, round end, flat car castings. I have no idea who made them but they were old an heavy.
Having grown up in Chicago in the last days of trolleys.... I'm a lay down for these things.
The crane is scratched from junk in the drawer and the tapered base post is a brass turning with a .003" sheet brass wrap with rivet detail pressed in from the back side.
The side boards turned up when needed for hauling paving bricks or sand. The hinges on the model work.
It is powered by a single Tenshodo spud as it seldom pulls anything but its own heavy self.
There was to be a popular judging at a seasonal meet some years ago so I made two exactly alike, less the blow torch on the barrel. I only had one. I gave one to Bruce and we entered them for judging just to confound the modeler / judges.
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So this work flat is completely scratch built but not all by me.
It started with only a styrene super structure that was given to me out of a batch in a junk box. It was clear that it had been built with some sort of trolley prototype. I've never found it but I can't say that I looked too hard either.
The deck is all sheet brass and the railings are supported by 1/16" square tube. I put a wood deck down with Goo and it is powered by two Tenshodo WB 26 spuds.
The whole thing was so light that the only way I could get some weight into it was the clutter on the decks. They are all pewter castings that actually added up to quite a bit of weight. It pulls really well.
The under floor box has a removable cover and all of the DCC electronics are in there.
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Bob,
Those are really neat trolleys and work flats. Great job on all. Wonderful stuff.
Tom ;D
Bob
Very nice work. They look great.
Bob, I'm admiring your work because I've been interested in trolleys since I can remember; my first 'train rides' were on Boston's MTA and I found the overhead wire and complex trackwork fascinating. I've seen excellent trolley modeling in various places, but never tried any myself; I substitute working on preserved cars at Seashore in Arundel, ME. Next month I'll take their motorman training course and sign up for some operating days there and at Lowell, MA.
Bob,
Always enjoy seeing trolleys. The traction models always have a lot of character too ! Will follow along for the ride. 8)
Tom
So I have been whacking away at this Labelle interurban combine for some time and with the drive unit mostly done I needed to get serious about this.
Below are the rough finished superstructure. Waiting for grab irons and de-fuzzing.
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Now that's gonna be one nice looking Trolley...
So I have two projects going at once. One is the above Sacramento car from Labelle and the other is a "back off of the shelf" after 3 years Labelle D&RG gas motor.
I set it aside some years ago as I was on a anti-rejection drug after the transplant and it gave me the permanent coffee jitters. The doctor said I would get over it when I came off of the drug. Well she was right. I took up the Falk project for a time as it was G scale and I could work with that. See elsewhere on the forum for that one.
The gas motor will never pull anything else so I am using a single Stanton Drive from NWSL. These are great little drive units and when two are used on a locomotive they can jerk stumps !
Well maybe scale stumps......
These drives come in a number of wheel base dimensions and mount to most anything.
The drives come without side frames so they need to be grafted on in some fashion. Below are photos of a saddle device I concocted from .015" brass. The truck frames are from and ancient American Beauty kit that is long gone but the trucks. I needed to cut out the center bolster and then mount the side frames.
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The drive is built on a PC board and is a really cool design. NOTE: the M1 and M2 pins need to be covered to prevent the DCC signal from the rail getting to the wrong side of the decoder.
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This is another Stanton drive that I made up some years ago for a Pacific Electric steeple cab. It had really weird truck frames. I built this for judging so it had a lot of brake rigging on it. I suspended the frame sides from the factory mounting screws for the PC board.
I'll put up photos of the steeple cab next.
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So with other projects going, I'll put up some photos of a scratch built from about four years ago. This thing was so butt ugly I had to build it ! ! !
This is a model of the Pacific Electric 51 freight motor. There were several modifications done to this with the most extensive in 1943. I modeled the original 1906 as it fits with the years of my railroad, 1898 to 1913.
It is built of brass shapes and .040" sheet brass for the super structure. One end is loaded with lead weights and the electronics are in the other. There is no space in the cab as it has a full interior. There is a square tube supporting the ceiling of the interior where five wires go to the roof for external lighting and the cab light. The externals run from DCC controls for dimming and which might be forward.
The power trucks are from NWSL and have a particular frame structure built around them from the prototype. The photo in the previous section shows the bottom.
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To continue from previous page...
First the interior and then the two done photos.
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Nice model of an ugly prototype. I suppose the walkway atop the hoods was OK for tending trolley poles, but it would have been taking your life in your hands to either step down to the coupler, or try to get across to the ladder on an adjacent car.
Bob! Bob! Bob!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Very cool brother! You had me @ Trolley Projects. ha. I've used the station drives before also, good idea. Nice thread big B. Keep up the great interesting pictorial.
Thanx Thom...
Thom... Thanx for looking in......
James........ this locomotive would win the OSHA apoplectic award.
As far as I know, PE ran live poles all the way to the hinge and springs on the roof.
see ya
Bob
Bob very nice work indeed.
Jerry
"ECHO!"
I like trolleys also. Am "dream"planning a very small trolley line in "downtown" wherever (whenever it happens). Came across this piece of art that I thought exemplifies the nostalgia of the era.
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Got some time on this interurban...
This will win today's "It's ugly but it works!" award.
I will cover the wires and such with a piece of black construction paper arched over the decoder and motor. It will be low enough that the car can be seen all the way through. A divider wall will separate the freight area so that there is no view through the front all the way to the rear.
The power frame has a motor lights and a decoder assembled. It actually runs pretty well with a straight line acceleration in the base programing of the decoder.
The trucks were shown earlier and are ancient Kawai trucks with an integral fender. They are so primitive that I had to use them. I did replace the brass wheels with Precision Scale NS wheels.
The second photo is the super structure which still needs a LOT of work..... but it moves.
A list yet to go is: steps, lights, glass, lettering and roof detail.
see ya
Bob
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This is great stuff Bob. ;D I really enjoy what you're sharing with. Thanks!
I also like the art piece Donato posted. ;D
Bob,
Ditto to what Bob said. I also see you are using a TCS WOW decoder. Great choice.
Tom ;D
Bob
Great Engineering to get these pieces of art working again. Enjoying the thread.
So I set these projects aside for a long while. I'm back at it and have some final stuff on the Sacramento Northern combine.
I changed my mind about a drive mechanism as I decided I wanted 8 wheel drive in addition to 8 wheel electric pickup. I took a Proto 2000 SW 9 / 1200 loco and peeled off the superstructure. I had used these drives in my trolley box motors and they are such solid runners I decided to use one for this model. I'm going to use it in general service and pull some freight in ops sessions so it needs to be bullet proof.
I extended the frame by about an inch and an eighth to get it to fill the longer body shell. I used brass channel stock and 0-80 screws. I had to make up a longer drive shaft for the one end sooooooooooooooo Northwest Short line to the rescue.
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Here is the mounted shell less pilot and couplers.
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And a shot of the motor in service at the interurban platform in East Boise.
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Love the trolleys Bob.....great work. 8)