Hello,
This is my first post on this forum. I admire many of the past HO scale structures offered in kit form. I visited several layouts after the last Expo and saw the beautiful FSM and South River kits in finished form as well as others on these layouts. I'd like to do some in O gauge and since they are no longer manufactured and never offered in O would it be ethical to ask this community for copies of plans from some of these kits and build an O gauge copy?
thanks,
Joe
Just to be clear, these builds would only be for my use on my layout.
thanks,
Joe
Joe,
First of all, welcome to the forum.
You raise an interesting question. Last evening a modeler friend and I had a conversation regarding making copies of structures offered by manufacturers no longer in business. I'm not sure we reached any "absolutes" by the end of our discussion. I have seen similar questions posed before, and it usually results in a discussion of the nuances of copyright law. I'll be interested to see what answers are posted to your question.
Don't make an exact copy of the kit. Make some visible changes then it is a new creative endeavour and then you own the copyright. If you keep it for your own personal use you are ok.
Is it ethical to take photos of the prototype structure and produce a kit and sell it? Hmm, its a strange situation because prototype buildings are explicitly copyrighted by someone and you need written permission to do it. Now with the new USA copyright timelines who knows
Ok, lets the rebuttals begin.
Welcome to the forum Joe. :)
All the designs we did for 1:1 high end residential residences were copyrighted, but all someone had to do was change some small detail (move a door, change the cabinet arrangement in the kitchen, etc.) and that negated my rights to enforce my copyright. >:(
Let's debate nail holes again. ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D Joe - as long as your building for yourself there is no reason not to use whatever resources you have available to you. Just have fun doing it. The only issue that I see is if you do it for someone else or for profit. Welcome to the forum I hope you will share your work with us.
Quote from: S&S RR on November 12, 2018, 04:54:10 PM
Let's debate nail holes again. ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
OH no, please not again. :'( ;D ;D
Tom ;D
Joe,
Welcome to the forum.
If it's just a matter of getting plans, I'll make you a copy of any of mine you may need for your project.
Tom ;D
Just as an aside - Builders in scale offer plans of many of their craftsman kits. Also there are many plans of structures large and small in Model railroader and Railroad model craftsman magazines - some of which have been turned into the super kits (American model builders Dabler Mill for example) and some great ones that no one else has.
cheers, mark.
Welcome to the forum and boy did you pick a hot one to get started here ;D
I know at least one retired kit maker that had to take legal action when his kits were copied back in the day. But I believe that was because the copy cat made the copies a business venture.
My take on it, If you can take a photo of a structure (prototype or not) and replicate it in miniature then I have no qualms buying you a round of sweet iced tea at the next Forum Expo get-together.
If a modeler is willing to gift you his or her no-longer-needed drawings/plans/templates/what-have-you from an out-of-production mega craftsman kit, then I have no reason to make an issue of it. I mean, you can have my old unread copy of War and Peace and what you do with it is up to you.
One thing is paramount, whatever you end up building share it here because we love pictures.
Jaime
The NMRA Library has plans for a lot of old Kits and will sell you a copy of them.
Jim
I think the only kit manufacturers that had decent "working" plans were Campbell, S.S. Limited and Builders in Scale.
FSM, SRMW and SWSM had/have excellent instructions but they don't have plans like the above mentioned manufacturers -templates for sub assemblies perhaps but not plans.
-slim
The earlier FSM kits came with full size drawings. They were good enough to help a modeler reproduce the intended structure. I bought an empty box with the instructions and drawings for the original FSM grain mill. It's on my list of stuff to tackle one day. I'd like to recreate that mill from the full size drawing that came with the kit.
Full size in HO :-) I'm certain one of you wisenheimers was sure to quip in ....
Jaime
I haven't sat down with a Makers Mark and done any serious cogitating on this issue. I've had the Makers Mark, but not the thought process.
Without taking sides on the issue, I can tell you that there a LOT of plans for old kits no longer being manufactured on www.hoseeker.net. You said you're building in O scale, but the plans could be resized at Staples for example, or the dimensions may be there to convert to O scale.
In exchange for this vital information, I ask that you please post any results of your quest on this site. You may not yet have seen one of our mottos, "We Love Pictures".
Welcome to the forum.
On the subject of out of production kits, many kits we think are no longer produced have been purchased by other companies and are still offered. This has been a limiter on some of my builds as it would be much more cost effect to copy old Magnuson Models wall sections but most of those kits are still offered by Scale Structures. So I hunt down bargains or bite the bullet and purchase new.
With any kit that is truly out of production you are likely to be unable to exactly match the structure anyway. Window and door castings are often older metal castings are often the limiter. So the best you can do even with plans in hand is approximate.
My technique for modeling any building based off another model or a prototype structure is to find widows and doors from Tichy or one of the other manufacturers and then use those to scale an approximation of the original structure. My goal is usually to capture the feel of the structure and not worry about exactly matching it. Graph paper, window & door castings and a general understanding of floor heights and stud spacing is enough to lay out a convincing structure.
Tichy offers window and door assortment sets than can give you a starting point for choosing the starting point for your builds. I use these to pick out the windows and doors I want and then order more of the specific parts. My Leroy's Grill and Stone station builds both began this way. These sets are often available at a discount from MicroMark.
As to the topic of modeling nail holes there is one question I have never seen addressed: If you model a nail hole this implies the nail has fallen out, so how do you model the nails fallen to the ground below? Particularly in HO or N scale. ;) ;D
Rodger - we are not allowed to talk about nail holes! - but - the nails are punched and then filled. Over time the filler falls out leaving a hole. The nails are still in there. Well - that's my understanding of things, anyway. If all the nails had fallen out the clapboards would fall off the structure.
Cheers, Mark.
First rule of Fight Club....errrr,,,,,I mean Nail Holes,,,,Don't Talk about Nail Holes!! ha ha.. I for one like them. Its that hyper-realism thing that I think makes models seem more "real",,, if that makes sense....
One joke about nail holes......:...:....
I just got an email reminding me that Tichy's cyber Monday deal runs though midnight Friday: a good chance to save on those windows if you're so inclined.
Another source of plans for structures is older modeling magazines if you have access to back issues or one of the electronic back catalogs. If memory serves that's how George got his start.
Cheers!
Hi Guys and Gals,
Thanks for the comments. So my takeaway is it would be O:K to get a copy of a plan and build myself a similar structure for my own use. So what I'd like to try and build is an O scale version of the Fine Scale Miniatures Coal Bunker Kit #75. I've admired pictures of this kit and finally saw it built at Dick Elwell's layout during the Expo. I would like to try my hand at building this. So can anyone help me with an ho drawing that I could get dimensions off or resize.? I would be glad to pay postage and copy fees. I would also document my efforts on this forum.
Thanks,
Joe
Quote from: rubbergauge on November 30, 2018, 08:49:57 AM
Hi Guys and Gals,
Thanks for the comments. So my takeaway is it would be O:K to get a copy of a plan and build myself a similar structure for my own use. So what I'd like to try and build is an O scale version of the Fine Scale Miniatures Coal Bunker Kit #75. I've admired pictures of this kit and finally saw it built at Dick Elwell's layout during the Expo. I would like to try my hand at building this. So can anyone help me with an ho drawing that I could get dimensions off or resize.? I would be glad to pay postage and copy fees. I would also document my efforts on this forum.
Thanks,
Joe
Joe,
Send me a PM with your name and address and I'll send you the plans/instructions.
You can get them copied and then send them back.
Tom ;D
Joe,
I got your email and there is no hurry to get the plans back. Don't just rush out to do it so you can send them back right away. Quite honestly, I'll probably never build the kit.
Yes, I agree, this forum is quite the resource.
Tom ;D
Quote from: ACL1504 on November 30, 2018, 02:03:45 PM
Joe,
I got your email and there is no hurry to get the plans back. Don't just rush out to do it so you can send them back right away. Quite honestly, I'll probably never build the kit.
Yes, I agree, this forum is quite the resource.
Tom ;D
Not building kits is one of my fortes :-)
Jaime
Quote from: NEMMRRC on November 30, 2018, 07:20:37 PM
Quote from: ACL1504 on November 30, 2018, 02:03:45 PM
Joe,
I got your email and there is no hurry to get the plans back. Don't just rush out to do it so you can send them back right away. Quite honestly, I'll probably never build the kit.
Yes, I agree, this forum is quite the resource.
Tom ;D
Not building kits is one of my fortes :-)
Jaime
I have a particular talent for starting but not finishing kits :-(
dave
Quote from: deemery on November 30, 2018, 07:56:58 PM
Quote from: NEMMRRC on November 30, 2018, 07:20:37 PM
Quote from: ACL1504 on November 30, 2018, 02:03:45 PM
Joe,
I got your email and there is no hurry to get the plans back. Don't just rush out to do it so you can send them back right away. Quite honestly, I'll probably never build the kit.
Yes, I agree, this forum is quite the resource.
Tom ;D
Not building kits is one of my fortes :-)
Jaime
I have a particular talent for starting but not finishing kits :-(
dave
Whew! I was afraid I was the only one with a stash of half built kits....
I'm in the same boat as Dave.....of the 19 kits on the layout, only 4 have been completed.....and they haven't been weathered and planted yet. :(
It must be something going around or some syndrome the shrinks haven't figured out yet. ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: GPdemayo on December 01, 2018, 09:03:12 AM
I'm in the same boat as Dave.....of the 19 kits on the layout, only 4 have been completed.....and they haven't been weathered and planted yet. :(
It must be something going around or some syndrome the shrinks haven't figured out yet. ;D ;D ;D
I think it's called ADD or Attention Defic...
So while I'm waiting for the coal bunker plans I thought I'd add this photo of a railroad I'm building in my yard. So could we consider these two sheds I build as scratch built model railroad structures? :)
Quote from: rubbergauge on December 02, 2018, 06:32:46 AM
So while I'm waiting for the coal bunker plans I thought I'd add this photo of a railroad I'm building in my yard. So could we consider these two sheds I build as scratch built model railroad structures? :)
Or, better yet, fill out the forms and get them judged to see if they can apply to your Master Builder - Structures Achievement Award if you don't have one already!
Quote from: vinceg on December 02, 2018, 07:36:54 AM
Quote from: rubbergauge on December 02, 2018, 06:32:46 AM
So while I'm waiting for the coal bunker plans I thought I'd add this photo of a railroad I'm building in my yard. So could we consider these two sheds I build as scratch built model railroad structures? :)
Or, better yet, fill out the forms and get them judged to see if they can apply to your Master Builder - Structures Achievement Award if you don't have one already!
I'm sure some judge would tell you, "the prototype wouldn't be built that way."
dave
Quote from: rubbergauge on December 02, 2018, 06:32:46 AM
So while I'm waiting for the coal bunker plans I thought I'd add this photo of a railroad I'm building in my yard. So could we consider these two sheds I build as scratch built model railroad structures? :)
I like the color you picked. I'm a tad jealous of the roof on those sheds.
Very nice. Send some of that sunshine these ways ;D
Jaime
So thanks to Tom Langford I now have a set of plans. I was having trouble finding a copy machine large enough for these plans and stumbled upon a home center in the next town that worked with Architects and had a machine that could produce full size building drawings. I had them make up a regular copy and also blow them up 181% to O scale. I was very surprised to see just how large this structure is in O.
(//)I was trying insert a picture here to show the difference in size but the insert image tool isn't working for me?
So now to make a list of the stripwood I'll need and get it on order. Having never done anything like this I'm going to have to figure out where to get it Kappler, Northeast, Micromark, we will see. To be continued.
Joe,
My pleasure in helping out with the plans.
Although Walthers sells Northeastern Scale Lumber, you are better off calling Northeastern directly as you will get a better deal. I use NESL for all my scratch builds.
Tom ;D
rubbergauge, don' forget about Mt Albert Scale wood for your lumber supply , they also are a sponsor for the Expo.
Good luck with your build, will follow along.
roostr
Kinko copy will do oversized copies but they are pretty careful about copyrights. If the marking is old enough they will probably run it.
They are pretty proud of color copies but b&w is acceptable fotr your needs.
Hope this helps.
See ya
Bob
As I've been reading various threads on this forum I came across a mention of a Troels Kirk DVD "Realistic Color for Model Railroads". I'd really like to get my hands on one as I'm very interested in his techniques of weathering printed card stock texture structures.
I've searched the web and it looks like it's no longer available. Does anyone have a copy they have watched 100 times and would consider selling it to me?
thanks,
Joe
By the way Merry Christmas!
So if anyone is wondering why there hasn't been any progress on this Coal Bunker project I am out of commission having had a full shoulder replacement on Jan 3rd so there will be no modeling for some time. By the way it is quite difficult trying to type Caps with one hand. I've ordered O'Neils Fabrication as I think building it will help me learn to scratch build. Can't wait to recover enough to start it. Never had one of Bret's kits so I'm really looking forward to seeing it.
I can't drive but I'm going to try and get out to the Big E next weekend and spend some money. So if you see a guy with his arm in a sling, please don't bump into me it hurts.
Joe
May you have a speedy recovery Joe .
Joe, good luck with the shoulder. I had rotator cuff surgery a couple years ago, that was a -long- recovery.
dave