Modeler;
I wonder two thoughts in model railroading today with regards to skill & imagination (i.e. FSM kits). If no John Allen, then would we have a George Sellios?
If no George Sellios, then where do you think your modeling skill & imagination would be today as a builder? Let's face it, Both John & George brought model railroading to an elevated level with overall skill of modeling theme.
If neither contributed to model railroading, where do you think your modeling skill & level would be today? This is a simple question because both are no longer contributing directly to model railroading today, (John has passed, George has retired) so where will you take your modeling skill & imagination tomorrow?
Does model railroading need another modeling trendsetter for the rest of us to follow? If so, who do you think it will be? What modeling direction will we take? Will our skills increase?
You know the history of model railroading, you know where model railroading is today, where will model railroading be many years from now? What say, you modeler? Thanx Thom...
Thom,
Your two thoughts have transcended into 9 questions.
I'll just get to the point and say Doug Fosscale is now the "new kid on the block".
I'll call you later.
Tom ;D
ACL 1504,
That's what I love about model railroaders. Nowhere else will one find such rivet counters (i.e. two thoughts) ha. KP-out... So here's my rivet counting, how bout build on some of those 9 questions then. grin...
Quote from: tct855 on February 26, 2019, 08:50:11 AM
ACL 1504,
That's what I love about model railroaders. Nowhere else will one find such rivet counters (i.e. two thoughts) ha. KP-out... So here's my rivet counting, how bout build on some of those 9 questions then. grin...
Rivet counters?
I can only speak from experience from one other hobby, but the Corvette restorers are beyond rivet counters. If there are 15 bolts in the front of a car and fourteen of them are as specified by the factory, there is absolute he)) to pay for that ONE incorrect fastener. I don't doubt there are competing hobbies in terms of crazies, but crazy isn't confined to modelers.
Thom: AKA KPI,
I was in a hurry earlier when I made my first post. Hope I didn't demean the questions or damage your family jewels, I just wanted to get it out that in my jumble opinion D. Fosscale is the new George.
I'll be happy to expand on the questions later today or this week but now I'm in the middle of kitbashing a two face signal for the A&S RR.
KPII ;D
No problem annointing Doug as the heir apparent, but that Karl guy in Michigan is no slouch either. The discussion here will naturally focus on the USA and Canada, but I'm sure there are more than a few modelers in Europe, India, and Asia who set the bar very high.
I would've never gotten into this hobby if it wasn't for George so for me he's the most important influence on me. I'm too young to be directly influenced by John Allen.
I think George elevated the hobby in several ways.
With his kits he set the bar for the quality of components in a craftsman structure kit. Every FSM kit came with more detail parts and higher quality detail parts than anyone else. He also set the bar for comprehensive instructions that walk you through each step in a clear and easy to understand way. Every novice modeler who built one of George's kits and followed his instructions is a better modeler on the other side. When you finished one of his kits you are left with new techniques and skills. Also his structure designs are some of the most creative and interesting.
With his F&SM railroad he really set the bar for detail and quality modeling on a large scale. I've never seen any layout that size that has that level of quality and detailing. His book is the only reason I got interested in this hobby. I don't really have much of an interest in trains but something about building a miniature world or diorama with that level of super detailing really appealed to me.
In my opinion the person carrying George's torch now is Brett Gallant. The quality of components in Brett's kits and the comprehensive instructions are the best out there. Like FSM kits if you build one of SierraWest kits and follow the instructions you will walk away with new techniques and skills. I think with every kit Brett is pushing forward with new and better techniques.
The greatest thing pushing the hobby forward now is the internet. If I search for rusting or peeling paint techniques on Google I can see videos or pictures from all different modeling groups not just model railroaders.
-Steve
There isn't one person who is carrying things forward in the hobby, but many. Yes Brett Gallant and Doug Foscale are two well known and skilled modelers, but there are others out there that have different skill sets and share them with us.
I knew John Allen and admired his railroad very much and still do. I didn't get in the hobby because of him, I was in the hobby before I met him. And then George came along, and like Steve said raised the bar.
Brett Gallant improved my skills as a modeler by building his kits and following his lengthy detailed instructions.
But there are other great modelers out there who have developed different scenery techniques, electrical etc. and we here about them on the internet, magazines, video's etc.
Well said, Steve. I don't know that you can just pick a single name. There are multiple aspects of all these folks. For example,
* I think Doug is a phenomenal modeler that offers kits that produce beautiful structures and scenes
* Brett is a phenomenal modeler that offers kits that are not only beautiful when built but have very high-quality instructions and are replete with great details. Ditto BobVG.
* George not only has all of the above but has also built a world-famous, can't-understand-how-he-possibly-did-it, running railroad that is arguably one of the best ever.
* John Allen was an amazing pioneer very early in the game. Brought a lot to scenery and operations, but didn't offer commercial products
Add to this some of the many talented modelers you see here and on other forums as well as the people who pioneered operations, electronics, and other aspects of the hobby and you have a lot of people demonstrating their creativity, talent, and leadership in the evolution of the hobby. There are celebrities in each area, but there are a too many categories on the scorecard for me to pick a single winner.
What they said.
This is a great question and some very cool responses.
My first FSM kit was the engine house. While I was away in Viet Nam for my all expense paid trip there in '68, a friend kit collected for me while gone. It cost me a solid 300 bux when I got back. Doesn't sound like a lot today.
In that mix was George's engine house. I kept the box. Said right on it, $9.95. Unbelievable ! ! ! !
I built it some years later and put a free standing, lighted interior in it. It is still in my Nampa yard.
Yes George taught us all what modeling could be and what a comprehensive kit might include. He raised the bar on casting quality and quantity. From his railroad he taught us what clutter was and the realism that such stuff brings.
But.......... to go in a slightly different direction........... it made US all better. Much of my building of stuff it to see if I can really do it. Sort of a personal quest. Some of my construction stuff shows up in other threads on this forum.
The NMRA achievement program is designed to do that also. Some people, rightly or wrongly, misunderstand the purpose of the whole thing. Some modelers have been royally beaten up by judges who score a model and then never tell the builder why they got the score they did. How can a person get better if they don't know what the judges saw.
The AP is about making better modelers. It was never intended to be the 13th Century inquisition that some have turned it into. I am doing my part here in the west to change that. The northwest guru of the Achievement Program refers to AP as aggressive pursuit. We go after good modeling and point it up when we find it and reward those persons with various certificates for accomplishments.
This then becomes encouragement to go on and see what else they can create and how well.
Yes we had and still have good mentors in the world, John Allen, George, Doug ( mentioned above), but we should not lose sight of ourselves in this conversation. Who among us has not offered encouraging responses to the work that goes on every day on this forum.
We are each making others better just by our presence here.
Just my two cents.............
see ya
Bob
I believe everyone pretty much summed it in all the above.
I remember thinking the next month's magazine was never going to hit the hobby shop. This is when Varney always had a B&W picture of their models on the Gorre & Daphetid.
George certainly did in fact raise the bar with his kits and the instructions are still second to none. Even George improved over the years with new techniques and weathering. His full page ads in RMC during the 70's got me hooked on his kits.
Yes, I'm a better modeler thanks to George and others as well as my own endeavors.
I've improved my hobby skills through the years by building various kits, reading "how to" articles and so forth. I look back on some of my earlier builds and thinking, "What was I thinking?"
Also, I've learned so much from this forum and the various talents displayed here.
Tom ;D
I'd like to put in a good word for Jack Work. His construction articles always taught and inspired me. I think he's the one who popularized Strathmore board.
Also E.L. Moore. His structures were often pastiches, but they were -very well done- and showed how you could get good results at low cost. That's important when you're starting out and don't have deep pockets.
dave
Dave...
Jack Work is my HERO ! ! ! !
His kitchen table machine shop is what prompted me into my Unimat of 1961 (that I still use) and from dinking with that I got my job on the first ship I was on, east coast before Viet Nam, a position of running the machine shop, A gang.
Look elsewhere on this forum for my thread on my overhead trolley maintenance motor. The pilots that I made up for that are right out of Jack Work.
Again......... good observation..
Thanx
Bob
I think Troels Kirk made some fairly major waves in the modeling world in recent times and influenced the way many people model. By coming into the hobby as a professional artist, and bringing with him techniques and mediums from that field, he presented a new, but also time tested approach to the hobby.
Cheers, Mark.
Quote from: mark dalrymple on February 26, 2019, 08:46:10 PM
I think Troels Kirk made some fairly major waves in the modeling world in recent times and influenced the way many people model. By coming into the hobby as a professional artist, and bringing with him techniques and mediums from that field, he presented a new, but also time tested approach to the hobby.
Cheers, Mark.
One of the people I wanted to mention from Europe along with Martin Welberg for his insanely realistic scenery. And then there are people like Marcel Ackle, Chuck Doan, Ken Hamilton who inspire us to do even more detailing . Which then is seen on this forum , done by the great Craftsmen here , that have inspired me through the years.
I would agree there is a very steady progression beginning with John Allen, then George (who changed the whole game for kit builders and with his layout)...to me, the current and recent guys who impress me the most are generally On30 guys like the Aussie group (with the late Geoff Nott) and similar groups who have built such amazingly detailed logging (generally) layouts and the group in Florida that have built the Sundance Central and other amazing displays and dioramas. The level of detail, whimsy, weathering, and personality in some of today's modeling is just stunning. These layouts generally have a very strong "personality" that transcends the trains and operation...almost like a movie set, I guess. I know it's my own particular taste but the heavy "theme" layouts tend to be Narrow gauge and maybe come off the Malcolm Furlow/Jon Olsen family tree. Troels Kirk and Martin Welberg, Don Railton and the other contest room regulars in Jan's post. Brett Gallant's stuff and influence certainly fits in this group as well. George's modeling direction, IMO, is ultra-detailed, extremely weathered, and generates a "feel" more than ultra-realistic...and all of these modelers seem to grow off of that direction. Perhaps I'm over-thinking this but I know how I react to different types of modeling talent...and there seems to be more of this genre than ever - even as the hobby seems to shrink.
I know there continues to be outstanding prototype and mainline modelers but, to me, the quirkier (generally large gauge) stuff is the state of the art and groundbreaking in the way that George has been for decades.
Good morning - I have to echo Bob and Dave on Jack Work and E.L. Moore - did you ever notice how many Moore builds became AHM kits? But I can't believe this thread has ran almost 2 pages now and no one has mentioned Hayden and Frary. I think back to the RMC series on Thatcher's Inlet and believe that is the consummate "layout how to". Whereas John Allen showed how to fill a basement H&F
built an "empire in a corner". As far as kit progression, a lot of us cut our teeth on the old Alexander,Timberline and Campbell kits and when we could afford it maybe a S.S. Ltd. and thought at the time these are truly the golden days. As far as George "pushing the envelope" some of his earlier efforts such as the signal and water towers would be considered pretty crude even by the standards at the time(cardboard sub structure covered by brick paper).
Hi All:
I have built probably around twenty FSM Kits. Frank Bernard and I used to get the Jewel Series kits to build as test fits before they were released. This was a lot of fun. I am now building FSM kits for a friends RR.
Karl
If your on this Forum...you must have some craftsman kits from your favorite manufactures...or just like model railroading...and one of my first small hard covered books was Frank Ellison's on Model Railroading. Many of the articles come from other magazines that showed his O gauge Delta Lines in the 40's-50's-60's era...some of the FSM kits and structures on George's layout are based on photos within this book. Frank Ellison is a name that is now added to this thread.
Tommy
This is an interesting topic. I decided a few years back to have name plates on the roundhouse stalls of my Stone Roundhouse to honor the modelers that had the greatest influence on "my modeling". Stall one, John Allen, stall two, George Sellios, stall three Bob VanGelder, stall four Darryl Huffman, stall five Karl Osolinski, stall six Bob Brown, stall seven Brian Nolan, and stall eight Doug Foscale. In addition to this, three of the towns on my layout are named Sellios, VanGelder, and Gallant. I met Brett Gallant about 10 years ago and if I built the Stone Roundhouse today he would be on there. Don't ask who would get bumped - we just would build another stall. I will say this, Brett has developed techniques and kits that have taken the hobby to another level of realism. I think my next round house will have to have more stalls if I'm to continue this process. My list of influential modelers is growing every year - I have met a few though this forum. Yes, John Allen and George Sellios and others built a great foundation for us all to build off from. I would say that this ever expanding list of names is evidence that the hobby is alive and well. I have no idea if I answered the 9 questions.
I bought an extra set of the RMC issues with "Thatchers Inlet", and dig that out whenever I need inspiration. I've talked to Dave Frary a couple of times, and even got an old beat-up kit from him that he wasn't planning to use.
dave
Thom's original question was who replaces George S? Discussion has evolved to a hall-of-fame roster. That's OK, always good to learn about someone I may not have been familiar with or forgotten about.
Re: Bob Hayden. Hasn't he more or less left the hobby?
I know what you mean Dave - when we were discussing "down or right sizing" when it came to our accumulated magazine collection - the RMC Thatcher Inlet issues were some of the few that I kept intact. I think Bob Hayden still has an active book store on the web -try BobHayden.com
Doug
Quote from: Blazeman on February 28, 2019, 09:28:49 AM
Thom's original question was who replaces George S? Discussion has evolved to a hall-of-fame roster. That's OK, always good to learn about someone I may not have been familiar with or forgotten about.
Re: Bob Hayden. Hasn't he more or less left the hobby?
Bob Hayden is very involved in the hobby see:
http://whiteriverproductions.com
Quote from: Blazeman on February 28, 2019, 09:28:49 AM
Thom's original question was who replaces George S? Discussion has evolved to a hall-of-fame roster. That's OK, always good to learn about someone I may not have been familiar with or forgotten about. ...
It's not just George, but also Bob Van Gelder that we've lost recently. I actually miss SRMW a bit more, since I really like big mill buildings. FOS kits are nice (and have good instructions), but they aren't filling the same niche as either FSM or SRMW.
I'm currently messing with walls from an Imagine That Laser Art (ITLA) background kit, for use as a mill behind my NE Browstone stone viaduct. There'll be a lot of kitbashing and adaptation involved with that.
dave
I just have to say we have not lost George or Bob to the hobby. They retired from the kit making business after many very productive years. They both continue to contribute to the hobby - they are both working on fantastic layouts, and continue to inspire.
Quote from: S&S RR on February 28, 2019, 10:30:54 AM
I just have to say we have not lost George or Bob to the hobby. They retired from the kit making business after many very productive years. They both continue to contribute to the hobby - they are both working on fantastic layouts, and continue to inspire.
Yep. What he said.
Quote from: S&S RR on February 28, 2019, 10:30:54 AM
I just have to say we have not lost George or Bob to the hobby. They retired from the kit making business after many very productive years. They both continue to contribute to the hobby - they are both working on fantastic layouts, and continue to inspire.
Hear! Hear!
Quote from: S&S RR on February 28, 2019, 10:15:01 AM
.
Re: Bob Hayden. Hasn't he more or less left the hobby?
Bob Hayden is very involved in the hobby see:
http://whiteriverproductions.com
[/quote]
Thanks for the update, John. Last I had seen was a video he was living in New Mexico. He reminisced about Thatcher's Inlet and moving the first C&DR across the country from California. Happy he's still involved. Maybe because I'm getting older, but I'm learning of guys pulling the plug on their participation in our hobby for other pursuits or have concluded their infirmaries make the necessary decision to give up being active modelers.
For me, I'd have to say that there are currently four companies that have been producing unique works that are pushing the edges of what George has accomplished over a long career. The limited edition kits from these folks are all excellent (listed in alphabetical order).
Art Fahie & Jim Mooney (Bar Mills Scale Model Works)
Brett Gallant (SierraWest Scale Models)
Dario Le Donne (Rail Scale Miniatures)
Doug Foscale (FOS Scale Models)
I'm sure you've got some favorites for each of these companies.
--Rich
Quote from: tct855 on February 26, 2019, 08:41:37 AM
Modeler;
I wonder two thoughts in model railroading today with regards to skill & imagination (i.e. FSM kits). If no John Allen, then would we have a George Sellios?
If no George Sellios, then where do you think your modeling skill & imagination would be today as a builder? Let's face it, Both John & George brought model railroading to an elevated level with overall skill of modeling theme.
If neither contributed to model railroading, where do you think your modeling skill & level would be today? This is a simple question because both are no longer contributing directly to model railroading today, (John has passed, George has retired) so where will you take your modeling skill & imagination tomorrow?
Does model railroading need another modeling trendsetter for the rest of us to follow? If so, who do you think it will be? What modeling direction will we take? Will our skills increase?
You know the history of model railroading, you know where model railroading is today, where will model railroading be many years from now? What say, you modeler? Thanx Thom...
Some Interesting thoughts have ensued since my original post.
Here's a reminder to some that inappurtenant to my original question. For some, I say pull back on the throttle and read the track signals again. My first paragraph sets the theme, my second paragraph asks the question and the third simply allows for the tone or direction of the question asked with regards to the theme or type of high detail modeling.
(some might ponder, which came first- the chicken or the egg- I merely suggest what if both modeling leaders weren't involved at all, would you have the craftsman skill level that you have today. Because of those who directly followed them, most likely would not be expanding on what John or George had started.
I for one would have not gotten as involved in the hobby because I would have never saw far enough into the possibilities of weathered modeling. I suspect until the skill level of the military modelers of today had come about and then I might have gone the direction of the building of planes and tanks and such from WWII as I first started out when building my first models. My 2ยข.