In the next few months I have several brass locos to paint. Some need WOW sound installed and some already have the sound installed.
Full disclosure here, this will not be a fast thread. It will take several months of work in paint prep, etc.
This loco was given to me by a friend. It needs to be stripped, cleaned, tweaked, tested and then all the good stuff can start.
It took a few days to figured out what road name this baby belonged to. Anybody care to try your hand at the indentification?
Here are a few photos of the condition in which it was delivered to me. Here is a hint. It was a 1919 Alco built loco, E-1 Class Santa Fe type 2-10-2.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-210220184053.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-210220184105.jpeg)
Continued -
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-210220184116.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-210220184126.jpeg)
Tom
This will be fun to watch. I really love the old brass locomotives but this is one aspect of the hobby I have not jumped into.
Tom,
Duluth, Missabe & Northern RR ???
Had to be a cold weather RR that had one with the house on the tender.....
Tommy
Quote from: S&S RR on February 21, 2020, 06:56:14 PM
Tom
This will be fun to watch. I really love the old brass locomotives but this is one aspect of the hobby I have not jumped into.
John,
Happy to have you along on this adventure. Not sure how many I'll paint this time but my brass painting days are closing in.
Tom ;D
I'll certainly be following, as I have a couple of locos in need of paint and DCC install. Maybe I could just sneak them into your queue. ;D
Jeff
Quote from: tom.boyd.125 on February 21, 2020, 08:34:26 PM
Tom,
Duluth, Missabe & Northern RR ???
Had to be a cold weather RR that had one with the house on the tender.....
Tommy
Tommy,
You are correct, well done. The Duluth, Missabe & Northern merged with the Duluth & Iron Range to become the Duluth, Missabe & Iron Range, DM&IR RR.
These were the only 2-10-2 locos they had and were a USRA design.
Tom ;D
Quote from: Zephyrus52246 on February 22, 2020, 07:39:30 AM
I'll certainly be following, as I have a couple of locos in need of paint and DCC install. Maybe I could just sneak them into your queue. ;D
Jeff
Jeff,
Thanks for following along. If I were younger I'd love to help. Over the past 45+ years, per my records, I've painted just over 380 brass locos. My DCC guy has retired so I'll be doing my own installs from now on. :'( :'(
I've installed DCC and sound in the past but it was nice to pay someone else to do it. That save me lots of time as well.
Tom ;D
Tom,
Almost all my locos are plastic, but I'll be following anyway. I always learn a trick or three from your brass painting threads. Actually, that can be said of all your threads.
Count me in too..... :)
Hey Tom:
I shall be watching also. I used to custom paint professionally many years ago. I wish I had some of the stuff that I did over the years. Lots and lots of Reading RR stuff. I used to paint for the Hobby shop I work in in Lansdale. Penn Valley Hobby Center. Anyway have fun with it.
Karl
Quote from: jerryrbeach on February 22, 2020, 07:47:24 AM
Tom,
Almost all my locos are plastic, but I'll be following anyway. I always learn a trick or three from your brass painting threads. Actually, that can be said of all your threads.
Jerry,
Welcome to this thread and for following along. I also have some plastic steamers (MTH) that I weathered and they look like brass. I'm happy when anyone picks up a trick or three from my threads. I also learn from this forum.
Tom ;D
Quote from: GPdemayo on February 22, 2020, 09:08:10 AM
Count me in too..... :)
Greg,
You are counted and are actually #5. 8)
Tom ;D
Quote from: postalkarl on February 22, 2020, 02:44:28 PM
Hey Tom:
I shall be watching also. I used to custom paint professionally many years ago. I wish I had some of the stuff that I did over the years. Lots and lots of Reading RR stuff. I used to paint for the Hobby shop I work in in Lansdale. Penn Valley Hobby Center. Anyway have fun with it.
Karl
Karl,
Welcome and thanks for following along. Painting brass is a dying art although many still do it. Painting a brass loco can bring me about $500-650 per loco. However, for me, my time is worth more than the money. I'm guessing this loco will take me, if done correctly, about 20 hours. That equates to $900.00.
Tom ;D
Key Imports imported this model in 1978 and Samhongsa Co. Ltd. was the builder. It retailed for $210.00 in '78. This is a USRA version. What I like about it are the air tanks on top of the boiler and the Elesco Feedwater heater on the top of the smoke box.
Before I spend a lot of time on painting, I'll install TCS WOW Sound to determine how it sounds and runs on my layout. I have two other brass 2-10-2 locos on the layout. One runs flawlessly and the other not so much. The one that has issues is a cheap brass model imported by NJ International and built by Daiyoung Models. That alone is 75% of the problem with that one loco.
Anyway, I'll start the thread by prepping the loco for sound and also show the DCC sound installation.
Late to the party, but I'll post my guess answer any way.
It's definitely not a Jersey Central loco despite the super heater mount. The give away is the non-anthracite firebox. I'll wait on what it really is.
Now I've got to rush down stairs and give this rascal by ESP all the yet undiscovered problems my modest brass fleet has. Then Tom can tell all of us how he solved those problem.
After while! (Later is all ready taken).
Hi Tom,
I've been busy this winter also in the brass dept with a number of PFM NKP Berks - I think a lot of modelers don't realize the amount of time it takes to bring one of these older brass imports up to speed so to speak just to install a modern sound board. Many of the older models were built with the 5 pole Pitman open frame style motor with a stall loading of 4-5 amps - instant death to the low amperage sound modules of today. Re-motoring usually requires installation of a higher ratio gearbox due to the higher rpm range of the newer can or flat can motors. Installing the new gearbox means splitting the drive axle to install the new drive axle gear which now requires re-quartering not only the drive axle but all of the driver sets to insure all have the same degree of quartering. Add in insulating the motor from any electrical contact with the frame( which may require a different style of motor mount), drilling the tender floor for the speaker installation, planning/installing any wire runs for lighting and its easy to see why a lot of collector's and modelers end up with a lot of pretty shelf queens. My hat is off to you Tom to continuing the "struggle". My only question - why WOW vs Tsunami?
Doug
It is a pretty loco (I had the privilege of seeing it in person on Saturday). It'll be fun to follow along with the transformation. Definitely not something I'd ever think of taking on. :o
Quote from: BandOGuy on February 22, 2020, 07:51:10 PM
Late to the party, but I'll post my guess answer any way.
It's definitely not a Jersey Central loco despite the super heater mount. The give away is the non-anthracite firebox. I'll wait on what it really is.
Now I've got to rush down stairs and give this rascal by ESP all the yet undiscovered problems my modest brass fleet has. Then Tom can tell all of us how he solved those problem.
After while! (Later is all ready taken).
Chip,
The loco is a Duluth, Missabe & Northern. Tom Boyd identified it correctly.
Tom ;D
Quote from: NKP768 on February 24, 2020, 10:31:12 AM
Hi Tom,
I've been busy this winter also in the brass dept with a number of PFM NKP Berks - I think a lot of modelers don't realize the amount of time it takes to bring one of these older brass imports up to speed so to speak just to install a modern sound board. Many of the older models were built with the 5 pole Pitman open frame style motor with a stall loading of 4-5 amps - instant death to the low amperage sound modules of today. Re-motoring usually requires installation of a higher ratio gearbox due to the higher rpm range of the newer can or flat can motors. Installing the new gearbox means splitting the drive axle to install the new drive axle gear which now requires re-quartering not only the drive axle but all of the driver sets to insure all have the same degree of quartering. Add in insulating the motor from any electrical contact with the frame( which may require a different style of motor mount), drilling the tender floor for the speaker installation, planning/installing any wire runs for lighting and its easy to see why a lot of collector's and modelers end up with a lot of pretty shelf queens. My hat is off to you Tom to continuing the "struggle". My only question - why WOW vs Tsunami?
Doug
Doug,
Over the years I've made all the repairs you discussed above. Re-quartering a driver is perhaps the very most critical aspect of any brass repair other than a correctly geared gear box. You get this wrong and you get a badly running piece of brass.
As you mentioned, this motor will have to be isolated from the frame in order for the DCC to correctly perform. This is a KEY import and has a large Canon can motor, probably 25X40mm in size. I'll know more when the boiler is removed.
I have 6 shelf babies and all but this one have WOW but need painting. I have two painted that need DCC. I've reduced my brass stock to about 38.
Working on brass isn't for the faint of heart as it takes a little special knowledge and some ability to disassemble one and put all 50-60 pieces back in the correct place.
Now, for the big question. I'll be polite here and hopefully brief as well. TCS WOW vs. Soundtraxx Tsunami.
At one time I had over 45 Tsunami DCC decoders installed in brass and Walthers P2K diesels. Of course this was in the early stages of Tsunami Sound. The steam whistles in the Light, Medium, Heavy and later Southern were in essence crap. You got 7 different whistles and 5 were no good. I had several issues with many of the Tsunami decoders and got virtually no tech support from them. And, I'm being polite here. This was all pre TCS WOW and the Soundtraxx Economi. I felt like Soundtraxx didn't want to back the product.
When WOW DCC decoders hit the market, I made a total 100% change from Tsunami to WOW DCC decoders. I've never had one bad experience with the folks at TCS and that says a lot for me. The WOW sound is far superior to Tsunami and is much more versatile as well. I could go on and on but TCS is what I use now.
To date I have 110 TSC WOW decoders in my brass and P2K diesels. The junk Tsunami decoders were sold on Ebay of $35.00 each. Suprisingly they sold like hot cakes.
Tom 8)
Quote from: ReadingBob on February 24, 2020, 10:45:52 AM
It is a pretty loco (I had the privilege of seeing it in person on Saturday). It'll be fun to follow along with the transformation. Definitely not something I'd ever think of taking on. :o
Bob,
Thanks for following along on this one. It will be a fun ride for those not doing the work. 8) 8)
Tom ;D
Thanks for your input Tom. I'm fairly new to sound decoder installation but have installed a number of NSC motor controllers so I appreciate your views on the WOW vs . Soundtraxx. I've only installed the Tsunamis and luckily have only had one issue (self inflicted)
so my contact with them has been some what limited. I will be following along.
Doug
Quote from: NKP768 on February 26, 2020, 11:24:23 AM
Thanks for your input Tom. I'm fairly new to sound decoder installation but have installed a number of NSC motor controllers so I appreciate your views on the WOW vs . Soundtraxx. I've only installed the Tsunamis and luckily have only had one issue (self inflicted)
so my contact with them has been some what limited. I will be following along.
Doug
Doug,
Go to the Soundtraxx and TCS sites and listen to the sounds. You'll be very surprised how much better the WOW is to Tsunami.
Tom ;D
Will do - thanks
This morning I removed the boiler from the frame. Different manufacturers had their own preference on how they produced the model and this dictated how the boiler was removed on their particular model.
On this model, Key Imports made it very simple. After turning over the model, you want to remove the front (pilot) and the rear (trailing) trucks.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-270220154138.jpeg)
More in a few. I can tell I'm going to need a Diet Pepsi to nurse on during this portion. :P
I removed the pilot truck as shown below. Note the screw opening on the forward portion of the frame base plate.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-270220153720.jpeg)
In addition to holding the pilot in place, this screw also holds the base plate onto the frame. This screw should be reattached to the loco frame.
The trailing truck was removed next. It isn't necessary to replace this screw. You can see the end of the base frame has a tapped screw opening for this on an extended portion of the base. You can put the screw back on if you think you may lose it. ???
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-270220153734.jpeg)
More in a few.
Now its time to remove the boiler from the loco frame.
In the next photo you can see a small screw where the red pencil tip is pointed. This screw goes down through the steam chest and into the bottom of the boiler. Remove this screw. Also note the front truck screw has been screwed back in.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-270220153747.jpeg)
Under the cab, there are usually two screws holding the cab onto the frame. Remove these two screw also.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-270220153758.jpeg)
Continuied -
Now you can remove the boiler from the frame. On many brass locos you need to move and wiggle the frame assembly slightly in order to remove the boiler shell.
On this loco, I turned it "wheels up".
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-270220153809.jpeg)
I then carefully removed the frame assembly from the boiler as shown.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-270220153821.jpeg)
Notice I'm holding the frame assembly by the sides of the steam chest or steam cylinder housing if you prefer. You certainly want to avoid grabbing the sides of the side rods and eccentric crank. Bending these is a recipe for a later disaster.
More in a few.
You can set the boiler/cab assembly aside for now. I noticed the two water pipes hanging from the bottom of the smoke box. These two brass water pipes come from the Elesco Feedwater Heater. You don't want to bend or break one of these off. If you do, then you'll need to use all your soldering skills to make the necessary repair.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-270220153836.jpeg)
I just placed the boiler on some foam so I don't have to take time later in a solder repair.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-270220154205.jpeg)
Again, you can also just lay the boiler on its side.
Continued -
This loco has had some extra weight installed. Normally all brass locos come with a small block or cylinder of lead that crews into the bottom of the boiler. The photo below shows where the screw would have been installed to hold the boiler weight.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-270220154232.jpeg)
The next photo shows the extra weight in the boiler. This is a lot of weight. This is good and this is bad. It is good as the loco will pull many more cars and I don't have to add any myself.
It is bad because the extra will put more wear on the chrome plated drivers.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-270220154252.jpeg)
So, when finished with all the testing, painting and etc. this loco will have a limited amount of time pulling cars on the Atlantic and Southern RR, meaning simply we won't be running it all the time.
Continued -
Prior to removing the boiler, I mentioned I though the can motor was a 25 X 40 mm motor. Well, I was wrong. It is simply a factory installed Canon 20 X 32 mm motor. It looked much larger in the boiler.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-270220154420.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-270220154433.jpeg)
It has plenty of pulling power even with the added weight.
More in a few.
I also noticed a small repair on the left rear brake shoe. If you look at the other brakes, they are held in place with a small flat head screw. This one is soldered on. I can only assume the screw head broke so the brass brake was soldered in place. I'm leaving this as is.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-270220154408.jpeg)
Now its time to test the mechanism, motor and side rods for any binds or problems.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-270220154445.jpeg)
Continued -
I placed the loco frame on some foam blocks so the drivers were not touching anything. I then clipped on two wires in order to make a test run.
https://youtu.be/gan47Ncz9lA (https://youtu.be/gan47Ncz9lA)
Looks nice! Why would the DCC controller make a difference in how this loco runs? Would you have to 'tune' the DCC to get better performance?
dave
Quote from: deemery on February 27, 2020, 05:11:41 PM
Looks nice! Why would the DCC controller make a difference in how this loco runs? Would you have to 'tune' the DCC to get better performance?
dave
Dave,
Thank you.
In analog DC, the current/voltage goes directly from the track to the loco motor. The amount of voltage given through the rheostat determines the smoothness of the start up and running of the loco. the better the power pack, the better the smoothness of the motor.
In DCC the voltage goes from the track to the DCC decoder. The DCC decoder then allows that voltage to pass to the motor. Not sure how it works but it gives the motor a more smoother and consistent voltage. Every single one of my brass locos and Walthers diesels ran much better AFTER the DCC decoder was installed.
I may not have explained it correctly but you get the idea. I'm sure someone will give us the very technical answer starting with how a sun dial works.
Tom ;D
Quote from: ACL1504 on February 27, 2020, 06:23:38 PM
Quote from: deemery on February 27, 2020, 05:11:41 PM
Looks nice! Why would the DCC controller make a difference in how this loco runs? Would you have to 'tune' the DCC to get better performance?
dave
.....starting with how a sun dial works.....
Tom ;D
.....in the beginning.....
That's all I've got. ::)
ACL 1504,
Wow! what a cool project my friend. Looking forward to this tutorial for sure (I need a break from life and some modeavation). BTW- slow down Greg (grin). Thanx Thom...
Quote from: ACL1504 on February 27, 2020, 06:23:38 PM
...starting with how a sun dial works...
Tom ;D
Nine day countdown! Remember to reset your sundials one hour ahead on March 8
Quote from: GPdemayo on February 27, 2020, 10:58:51 PM
Quote from: ACL1504 on February 27, 2020, 06:23:38 PM
Quote from: deemery on February 27, 2020, 05:11:41 PM
Looks nice! Why would the DCC controller make a difference in how this loco runs? Would you have to 'tune' the DCC to get better performance?
dave
.....starting with how a sun dial works.....
Tom ;D
.....in the beginning.....
That's all I've got. ::)
Greg,
Well, that is something you don't have!
Tom ;D
Quote from: tct855 on February 28, 2020, 01:54:49 AM
ACL 1504,
Wow! what a cool project my friend. Looking forward to this tutorial for sure (I need a break from life and some modeavation). BTW- slow down Greg (grin). Thanx Thom...
Thommy,
Thank you my friend. This is going to be a fun project and one I'm not in a hurry to do. This is a "fill in project" meaning one that I'll work on in taking a break from other projects.
Enjoyed our phone conversation this morning.
Tom ;D
Quote from: Rollin on February 28, 2020, 09:27:23 AM
Quote from: ACL1504 on February 27, 2020, 06:23:38 PM
...starting with how a sun dial works...
Tom ;D
Nine day countdown! Remember to reset your sundials one hour ahead on March 8
Rollin,
Good to see you. DST on March 8, got it. The alarm on th
e sun dial is all set. 8)
Tom ;D
This project is temporarily on hold. I'm sending it to a friend to have it sand blasted. There is some paint in areas that won't come off with Acetone. Often when a loco is stripped for a second painting, the black paint won't strip off the solder either or some areas of the brass.
I'll keep ya'll informed.
Tom ;D
The DM&IR returned safe and clean last week. The cleaning did a great job in removing some of the old paint and solder blobs.
I need to drilled the tender for a speaker and drill out the light cans for LED installs. However, this one isn't up until two other brass locos are painted.
You can definitely see the difference in these photos and the ones shown earlier. A few repairs were made as well.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-160420183637.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-160420183649.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-160420183700.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-160420183712.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-160420183723.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-160420183735.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-160420183747.jpeg)
Now that's Patience. Beautiful Job Tom........Dennis
Quote from: Dennis Bourey on April 16, 2020, 07:54:02 PM
Now that's Patience. Beautiful Job Tom........Dennis
Dennis,
Thanks for checking in. I can't take credit for the cleaning, I had a friend do it. I will do all the painting though.
Tom ;D
Hi Tom,
Did your friend media blast to clean?
Doug
Quote from: NKP768 on May 01, 2020, 10:21:57 AM
Hi Tom,
Did your friend media blast to clean?
Doug
Hey Doug,
Yes, he did blast clean the loco but not sure what he used. He also made a couple of minor repairs where he found some loose parts.
I appreciate the follow up question on the cleaning. I'll be painting this one after I finish the C&O 2-6-6-2.
Tom
ACL 1504,
I wanted to check in to see where you were in this build. Have gotten any time for progress? I know you have about a mere 3,732 different projects going on at any moment in time.
Thanx Thom...
Thom,
Yes, I've been and continue to be very busy these days.
This painting has been pushed back to November or early December at the earliest. Sorry for the delay in getting started.
Tom ;D