This is the next brass loco in the paint shop. This is a brass PFM C&O K3 2-8-2. In fact, I'm behind in the thread as this one is already painted but needs details and decals added.
This model came in two versions. Both a rectangular tender and a Vanderbuilt tender model was offered in 1978 at a retail cost of $495.00. The Vanderbuilt version cost $550.00. Also, they both had the Elesco K-40 feedwater heater on top of the smoke box. 730 of both versions were made and imported.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-290520175245.jpeg)
Here is a photo of the Vanderbuilt tender version. The locos were identical with the exception of the tenders. At various times, these have sold on the secondary market for upwards of $1200.00 to $1800.00. Prices are low so now you can probably get one, if available, for around $650.00.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-290520175256.jpeg)
More in a few.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-290520175307.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-290520175323.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-290520175335.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-290520175347.jpeg)
On this model, the cab comes off and the backhead with all the extra details also comes off.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-290520175358.jpeg)
There are some interesting disassembly issues which I'll cover later. Just for FYI.
Tom...
This is a great model.
Looking at the marker lamps below the Elessco water heater..... if you need glass jewel pieces for those please let me know. I have most colors......
See ya
Bob
Oh goody.....another neat steam engine.....I'll be looking in. :)
Hey Tom:
Can't wait to see this one done. Post lots of pics.
Karl
Quote from: bparrish on May 29, 2020, 06:38:01 PM
Tom...
This is a great model.
Looking at the marker lamps below the Elessco water heater..... if you need glass jewel pieces for those please let me know. I have most colors......
See ya
Bob
Bob,
Yes, this is a great model and I'm way behind in an update on the painting.
Whatever white marker jewels you want to get rid of I'll be happy to take them.
Tom ;D
Quote from: GPdemayo on May 29, 2020, 06:55:00 PM
Oh goody.....another neat steam engine.....I'll be looking in. :)
Greg,
I should have an update in the next few days.
Tom ;D
Quote from: postalkarl on May 30, 2020, 05:07:53 PM
Hey Tom:
Can't wait to see this one done. Post lots of pics.
Karl
Karl,
This one is well on the way to being finished but will post more photos tomorrow. Thanks for following along.
Tom ;D
This isn't part of the update I've promised but I wanted to show ya'll yet another different drive mechanism on a brass loco.
Most brass have what we refer to as an enclosed gearbox. Meaning the bottom gear housing has a cap on it and the main gear doesn't show.
Below is the enclosed gearbox on the C&O K3.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-290520175411.jpeg)
Below is a photo of an open gearbox.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-060620170959.jpeg)
Continued -
This loco has an idler gear as part of the main drive. The motor shaft has a worm gear on the end. This worm gear meshes with the idler gear in the gearbox tower. The worm gear turns the idler gear and this in turn turns the gear on the driver.
This set up is very dependable and is very quiet as well.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-290520175426.jpeg)
Here is something I've never seen on a brass loco - ever. The motor mount has a spring on the rear as shown. I'm guessing this helps with the smoothness of the motor, motor mount and the idler gear all working together with the least amount of "bounce".
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-290520175439.jpeg)
I do have the loco painted but not yet back together. I'll show some photos tomorrow of the painted model and mention some issues I didn't count one.
Progress has been slow on this one as all the rain is holding me up a little. I just don't paint when it is damp and/or high humidity out. It affects the paint spray. Anyway, I'm waiting for some nice weather so I can finish with the top satin coat.
I painted the backhead details and cab interior.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080620121920.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080620121932.jpeg)
Continued -
Main frame and all side rods back in place.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080620121944.jpeg)
I set the boiler on the frame and the tender on the tender deck and trucks. Nothing is screwed together at this point.
The loco boiler, cab and tender all have a gloss coat on. I'll spray the satin finish on later when the weather permits.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080620121955.jpeg)
Continued -
The boiler appears crooked in the next photo. The boiler is only sitting on the main frame and not secure. The photo angle also adds to the illusion.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080620122007.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080620122019.jpeg)
I had to use a set of old C&O decals. The C&O also used a Delux Gold on some of the K3's. The set for this K3 had the Delux decals. However, the decal refused to meld to the tender rivets. Even using the decal set, they wouldn't set and showed an air bubble under the decal.
So, heck, I used what worked.
Beautiful job on the K-3. The class was basically a souped-up USRA design. The K-3 was one of the largest Mikes ever built. It was heavier than the other K class Mikes, weighing in at 731,340 lbs, including the engine and tender. The K-3 class had 63" drivers and 67,700 lbs tractive effort, according to Stauffer's book. Fortunately, for the fireman, it had a stoker. A hog made for dragging freight from The Bottoms to Summit. And the lease from the C&O was very reasonable. Five dollars a year plus upkeep. Not bad considering the minimum wage for labor in 1950 was $.75 per hour.
Tom,
Once again, simply stunning. Love the overall paint job (who wouldn't), that cab interior is especially nice IMO. So many things that stand out like the builder's plate, glad hands, and the inside of the bell. Yet again I am at a loss for words...
Another beautiful paint job. Especially on the interior. What color green do you use, it looks sort of like zinc chromate green, but not as vivid.
Jeff
Tom
Very nice work, it looks great.
hey Tom:
Just beautifully done. I think I told you before that before I started building wood craftsman structure kits I did HO scale custom painting. Wish I had A nickel for every piece of HO equipment I painted from brass to plastic. I used to paint for customers at the Hobby Shop (Penn Valley Hobby Center In Lansdale, Pa). It was A lot of fun.
Karl
Another nice job Tom- I'm always impressed at how quickly you crank these out. I've seen a few Key Models with the open gear boxes and sprung motor mount. I do a similar mod to the older PFM Berks that I have been updating for DCC. I've been using the PSC gearbox which has a tab cast on the rear facing surface to which I attach a brass strip. The motor mount is then soldered to this strip and a hole drilled at the farthest end. A 00-80 machine screw is ran through this hole and through a like hole that has been drilled in the rear frame plate. A short piece of black tubing is then threaded over this screw and the strip secured to the frame. I believe back in the day they called this a torque arm mount. The beauty of this arrangement is two fold - the motor shaft is always aligned with the gear box pinion gear shaft and there is no solid motor mount to frame connection which results in a very quiet drive. Agin beautiful job.
Doug
Quote from: Judge on June 08, 2020, 04:06:07 PM
Beautiful job on the K-3. The class was basically a souped-up USRA design. The K-3 was one of the largest Mikes ever built. It was heavier than the other K class Mikes, weighing in at 731,340 lbs, including the engine and tender. The K-3 class had 63" drivers and 67,700 lbs tractive effort, according to Stauffer's book. Fortunately, for the fireman, it had a stoker. A hog made for dragging freight from The Bottoms to Summit. And the lease from the C&O was very reasonable. Five dollars a year plus upkeep. Not bad considering the minimum wage for labor in 1950 was $.75 per hour.
Bill,
Thank you for the compliment and the extra information.
Tom ;D
Quote from: jerryrbeach on June 08, 2020, 06:55:09 PM
Tom,
Once again, simply stunning. Love the overall paint job (who wouldn't), that cab interior is especially nice IMO. So many things that stand out like the builder's plate, glad hands, and the inside of the bell. Yet again I am at a loss for words...
Jerry,
Thank you for the generous and very kind compliment on the paint job. Paying attention to the small details and highlighting them is what gives the loco an authentic appearance. The extra time it takes sure makes a huge difference.
I have a Great Northern pacific planned painting as well. I've always wanted to paint a GN boiler, cab sides and steam chest in the GN green with all other features black. It is brass PFM H-5.
Tom ;D
Quote from: Zephyrus52246 on June 08, 2020, 07:28:12 PM
Another beautiful paint job. Especially on the interior. What color green do you use, it looks sort of like zinc chromate green, but not as vivid.
Jeff
Jeff,
Thank you very much. the interior green is just something that pleases my eye when mixed. I have not set formula.
Here are the two brands I used. I've never seen the Zinc Chromate Green color.
Scalecoat - Southern Green mixed with White until it looks correct.
Floquil - Dark Green mixed with Reefer White until it looks correct.
Again, the white makes it lighter so keep this in mind.
Tom ;D
Quote from: S&S RR on June 08, 2020, 09:32:34 PM
Tom
Very nice work, it looks great.
John,
Very much appreciate the kind remarks on the loco.
Tom ;D
Quote from: postalkarl on June 09, 2020, 12:40:55 AM
hey Tom:
Just beautifully done. I think I told you before that before I started building wood craftsman structure kits I did HO scale custom painting. Wish I had A nickel for every piece of HO equipment I painted from brass to plastic. I used to paint for customers at the Hobby Shop (Penn Valley Hobby Center In Lansdale, Pa). It was A lot of fun.
Karl
Karl,
Thank you my friend. I do remember you saying you used to paint locos for customers at Penn Hobby Center. I think this one puts me at number 394 or close to it.
Tom ;D
Quote from: NKP768 on June 09, 2020, 11:36:54 AM
Another nice job Tom- I'm always impressed at how quickly you crank these out. I've seen a few Key Models with the open gear boxes and sprung motor mount. I do a similar mod to the older PFM Berks that I have been updating for DCC. I've been using the PSC gearbox which has a tab cast on the rear facing surface to which I attach a brass strip. The motor mount is then soldered to this strip and a hole drilled at the farthest end. A 00-80 machine screw is ran through this hole and through a like hole that has been drilled in the rear frame plate. A short piece of black tubing is then threaded over this screw and the strip secured to the frame. I believe back in the day they called this a torque arm mount. The beauty of this arrangement is two fold - the motor shaft is always aligned with the gear box pinion gear shaft and there is no solid motor mount to frame connection which results in a very quiet drive. Agin beautiful job.
Doug
Doug,
Thank you as well sir. Remember, I'm retired so I can work at any pace. That said, I think I have about 6 to 8 more to paint. Then I'm retiring from any brass painting. Some of the Key and early PFM have open gear boxes. Some I've converted to NWSL gear housing. I've not tried the Precision Scale ones.
What's good about the WOW sound is that it covers the slightest little sound. However, I like them very quiet prior to installing the DCC.
Thank again for checking in.
Tom ;D
When installing DCC sound be it Tsunami, TCS WOW or any other, the motor must be isolated electrically from the frame. On 98% of brass I've work on, the moror (+) is wired to the brass frame and the (-) goes to the tender through the drawbar.
With DCC the Black wire from the decoder is soldered or attached to the loco frame. The DCC Red wire is soldered/attached to the tender.
With all this in mind, I needed to electrically separate the motor from the loco frame.
I traced the round motor mount onto some 3/32 thick Evergreen styrene.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080620122029.jpeg)
I then cut and filed the styrene so it basically fit the motor mount.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080620122040.jpeg)
More in a few.
Since the 3/32" styrene was placed between the motor mount and motor front, this moved the worm gear back 3/32" as well.
The gears still meshed but the worm gear was set more towards the rear, in fact 3/32" back.
The gear has a set screw that secures it the motor shaft.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080620122051.jpeg)
Even after the set screw was loosened, the gear refused to move. Not wanting to damage the gear, I used the NWSL gear puller to remove the gear from the shaft.
I then reset the gear on the shaft 3/32" forward to match the top of the idler gear in the gear housing which is the original gear position.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080620122103.jpeg)
Continued -
Here is how it looks now that the motor is isolated from the motor mount. Note I also added a small piece of .020" styrene to the bottom. This will prevent any close contact with the motor and motor mount.
The white styrene will be painted to match the rest of the gear housing.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-080620122121.jpeg)
Hey Tom:
Looks like you are having fun.
Karl
Karl,
Yes, I feel like Scrooge when he said, "I don't deserved to be this happy". 8)
Tom ;D
Hey Tom:
sounds good to me.
Karl
What type of screws did you use to secure the motor?
T.C.
Quote from: T.C. on June 10, 2020, 07:48:06 AM
What type of screws did you use to secure the motor?
T.C.
T.C.,
I forgot to mention no screws were used. I did use 5 minute epoxy to secure the motor to styrene and the styrene to the brass.
I did this on two other DCC installs three years ago and so far no problems with the epoxy. Of course I did place a small piece of tape over the screw hole in the motor casing.
Great question.
Tom ;D
You are working way too hard, Tom. Go to TCS sight and order a roll of Kaptan tape (.003" plastic - tough stuff). Place a layer of the tape over the "motor" face of the brass mount. Use a sharp knife to open up the hole for the motor shaft / bearing collar. And the screw mounting hold. Then run down to Napa (or other auto parts store) and get a tube of Permatex "Ultra Black" gasket material. Fix the motor to the motor mount with the stock metal screws tightly in place. (No need to adjust the worm in this case.) Run a bead of the Permatex between the motor can and the horizontal arm under the motor. Let it set over night and then don't forget to remove the screws.
The hardest part of this job is keeping the Permatex from getting all over everything. At least it doesn't stink.
Anyway no tedious cutting of plastic and no obnoxious epoxy on a brass model (unforgivable sin!) and if it took you longer than a hour you must have stopped to do a couple of crossword puzzles. Oh. And if you need to remove the motor it cuts off with a knife; zip, zip, done. And if you want to put it back a nice thin coat of Permatex and the two screws over night. Done.
Derrell
Quote from: 7thStreetShops on June 13, 2020, 10:46:12 AM
You are working way too hard, Tom. Go to TCS sight and order a roll of Kaptan tape (.003" plastic - tough stuff). Place a layer of the tape over the "motor" face of the brass mount. Use a sharp knife to open up the hole for the motor shaft / bearing collar. And the screw mounting hold. Then run down to Napa (or other auto parts store) and get a tube of Permatex "Ultra Black" gasket material. Fix the motor to the motor mount with the stock metal screws tightly in place. (No need to adjust the worm in this case.) Run a bead of the Permatex between the motor can and the horizontal arm under the motor. Let it set over night and then don't forget to remove the screws.
The hardest part of this job is keeping the Permatex from getting all over everything. At least it doesn't stink.
Anyway no tedious cutting of plastic and no obnoxious epoxy on a brass model (unforgivable sin!) and if it took you longer than a hour you must have stopped to do a couple of crossword puzzles. Oh. And if you need to remove the motor it cuts off with a knife; zip, zip, done. And if you want to put it back a nice thin coat of Permatex and the two screws over night. Done.
Derrell
Derrell,
Hey, I appreciate you checking in and also for the information. I ordered some of the TCS Kaptan Tape this morning. I'll try your method next time this comes up.
Not sure the "unforgivable sin" is any different with Permatex instant gasket rather than epoxy. Either way works I guess. Your way certainly seems faster.
Again, thanks for the tip. I'm liking it already.
Tom ;D
Wouldn't it have been easier to use nylon screws? :) Great job regardless If I may ask, how are you putting the window glass in the cabs and what type of glazing are you using?
Thanks for your postings !
T.C.
T.C.,
Thank you, appreciate the compliment.
Nylon screws were my first choice but didn't have any that fit. The metal motor casing would still need to be separated from the brass motor mount.
On past models I've used Gallery Glass for the windows while on others I've used Acetate/Mylar for the windows. The clear acetate glass is difficult to get on the back side of most brass cab windows.
Tom ;D
Tom;
Very interesting and the results are amazing. I have never attempted painting any engine so really appreciate the 'hows' and 'whys'. Something I will try sometime.
Jim D
Quote from: Jim Donovan on June 14, 2020, 09:09:19 AM
Tom;
Very interesting and the results are amazing. I have never attempted painting any engine so really appreciate the 'hows' and 'whys'. Something I will try sometime.
Jim D
"Not sure the "unforgivable sin" is any different with Permatex instant gasket rather than epoxy. Either way works I guess. Your way certainly seems faster."
Oh, that's just a personal pet peeve of mine, I suppose. I get pretty annoyed when I repair a model with a soldering Iron (the correct way to attach brass to brass) and get a face full of obnoxious fumes - not to mention epoxy generally fails a LOT sooner than solder - I'll just about guarantee that across the board. Brass is a nice metal, generally very workable but, truth is, it hates just about everything sticking to it. Korean Brass is of a "unknown" alloy, perhaps made up of U.S. 105 shells and the variable "x". And they invented water soluble solder to go with it!
The advantages of the Epoxy to mount a motor are; probably we all have that substance in our arsenal of adhesives and it sets up quicker. Can't think of any others. The Advantages of the Permatex is that; there is no tedious mixing (epoxies stink); it is not rigid which allows the motor to flex a tiny bit if it "needs" to; it can quickly be cut away and re-established with a thin "between" coat to rapidly adjust the position of a motor and; it cleans from the joint readily with a variety of (albeit stinky) solvents, if necessary. And it doesn't stink. Did I mention how annoyed I get when running into stinky fumy epoxy that burns my eyes when I get a face full of it?
You can use Nylon screws if you want but the Permatex holds plenty firm enough that they are not necessary. I use the metal screws only to hold the motor alignment while the Permatex sets. After that nothing is needed.
You do great work Tom. Everyone is enjoying this project. Thanks. I love it when people "do" stuff. That is the greatest value of this hobby. Hope I can help other "do" - I charge a lot of money when they want me to "do" it...
Derrell,
I certainly understand how frustrating repairing some brass belonging to others can be. When it comes to brass on brass I also always use solder. In this case it was plastic so I used the epoxy.
I really like the idea of the Permatex and screws to hold it in place until dry. I like the idea the Permatex is flexible. I plan on using this method on the next brass where DCC will be installed. Thanks for the tip. See, old dogs can learn new tricks.
Again, thank you for the compliment. Coming from you and Thom means a lot.
Tom ;D
Quote from: Jim Donovan on June 14, 2020, 09:09:19 AM
Tom;
Very interesting and the results are amazing. I have never attempted painting any engine so really appreciate the 'hows' and 'whys'. Something I will try sometime.
Jim D
Jim,
Thank you, appreciate the post. Sorry I missed your post the first time around. I put off my first painting for two years. When I finally decided to paint, it wasn't as bad or scary as I thought.
Tom ;D
I'm sure there are a lot of talented modelers on this forum from which each of us could learn a lot. When the hobby really took root back in the 1920's there was just about ready-to-run nuthin'. No flex track - not even rail. I've read stories of those pioneer modelers running O scale size models with ac motors on track wired with 110volt power. Yikes! (The Electric industry took off in the '20s and that is when the majority of the homes in America were wired.)
Before that it was 0-5-0 power or a clock mechanism.
Today I'm working on making scale sand - that's how far we've come - and we don't even need power on the track.
It's a wonderful hobby but the soul is still the craftsmanship and the best reward is to build and paint a model like Tom's, and then watch it run.
7th Street Shops has repeatedly said, "it's a machine first. It can be the prettiest thing on the shelf but if it don't run it ain't nuthin' but a diorama."
Bet this one runs like a 32 jewel Swiss watch.
Quote from: 7thStreetShops on June 15, 2020, 10:35:53 AM
I'm sure there are a lot of talented modelers on this forum from which each of us could learn a lot. When the hobby really took root back in the 1920's there was just about ready-to-run nuthin'. No flex track - not even rail. I've read stories of those pioneer modelers running O scale size models with ac motors on track wired with 110volt power. Yikes! (The Electric industry took off in the '20s and that is when the majority of the homes in America were wired.)
Before that it was 0-5-0 power or a clock mechanism.
Today I'm working on making scale sand - that's how far we've come - and we don't even need power on the track.
It's a wonderful hobby but the soul is still the craftsmanship and the best reward is to build and paint a model like Tom's, and then watch it run.
7th Street Shops has repeatedly said, "it's a machine first. It can be the prettiest thing on the shelf but if it don't run it ain't nuthin' but a diorama."
Bet this one runs like a 32 jewel Swiss watch.
Derrell,
Scale sand, wow. Can't wait to see that.
I remember seeing my first piece of ready made flex-track in the early 50's. It was code 100 brass rail with fiber ties. The ties were attached to the rail with what appeared to be small staples. Two staples for each tie.
I'll quote Howard Zane here, "If you are buying brass as an investment, don't. If you are buying brass to look at, don't. If you are buying brass to run and enjoy, buy as much as you can afford."
This C&O K3 does run like a Swiss watch.
Derrell, I hope you don't mind but folks need to know you are the new owner of NWSL. Just saying.
Tom ;D
I'm back! Took some time off from painting brass and got many 1:1 projects finished.
I also finished the K3 painting. I still need to add the coal load. If I added it today, the Judge wouldn't be able to run it tomorrow. The coal load will be added in the days to come.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-260620170701.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-260620170717.jpeg)
Cab interior light installed along with the crew. This time I used a standing Fireman to add a little different look to some of the locos.
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-260620170728.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-260620170739.jpeg)
(https://modelersforum.com/gallery/24-260620170750.jpeg)
Very nice work :)
Eric
Tom,
As usual, simply stunning. I like the lighted cab interior. Are you planning to post a video for those of us that cannot see this gem in person? (Hint, hint.)
Another gem, Tom.
Jeff
Another gem Tom..... 8)
Tom, you are a true man of your craft. You take things most wouldn't attempt and put out true artwork. I love seeing these beauties come to life.
Tom
Fantastic work my friend. A beautiful piece of art, as was said above.
Quote from: EricQuebec on June 26, 2020, 05:16:25 PM
Very nice work :)
Eric
Eric,
Thanks very much, this one was fun to do.
Tom ;D
Quote from: jerryrbeach on June 26, 2020, 06:57:02 PM
Tom,
As usual, simply stunning. I like the lighted cab interior. Are you planning to post a video for those of us that cannot see this gem in person? (Hint, hint.)
Jerry,
Thank you for the compliment. I try to light the cabs when the locos have decent cab interiors.
I didn't get a chance to do a video this past Saturday so hopefully we'll get one this weekend.
Tom ;D
Quote from: coors2u on June 27, 2020, 07:04:08 PM
Tom, you are a true man of your craft. You take things most wouldn't attempt and put out true artwork. I love seeing these beauties come to life.
Dustin,
Great to see you my friend. It's been awhile. Your very generous compliment is much appreciated. I love to see this come to life as well.
Tom ;D
Quote from: S&S RR on June 28, 2020, 07:46:27 PM
Tom
Fantastic work my friend. A beautiful piece of art, as was said above.
John,
Thank you as well, as said above. Much appreciate you checking in. 8) ;D
Tom ;D
The C&O K3 mikado was filmed coming by General Bedford Forrest Forest. Not the slight wheel slip on the last curve. Sand was applied and the loco continued on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI4PAcU8U_U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI4PAcU8U_U)
What fun..... 8)