I am working on one of these cutters, I have it mostly done and am into the testing tweaking stage.Everything is working well but I find I still get a slight deflection toward the bottom of a cut?I am using a standard single edge razor blade and was wondering if a heavier blade would cure this problem?I remember someone said to use blades for a Matt cutter ?
They do come in a thicker version 15 thou. apposed to 9 thou. and also come in single or double bevel versions.Any advise or suggestions would be very welcome......Thanks T.C.
Where are you getting those different kinds of blades?
dave
Thanks for the reply:I haven't actually bought any blades yet as they come in packs of 100 and I dont want to buy the wrong one.I am leaning towards the single bevel blades because I think they may cut more square on the side that's flat ?
Honestly I really dont know?
Hoping someone here would.......
Have you one of these cutters ?
T.C.
Link to blades https://www.amazon.com/Logan-Graphics-268-100-Blade-Framers/dp/B0010EOE5C
I bought a shay cutter online last year and was disappointed that it really didn't cut any cleaner than my chopper. I had no idea that the blades came in different thicknesses. Mine are .009 in., I need to find some of the thicker ones to see if this matters. I saw some on line that were .012. I don't think the ones you posted will fit in my cutter.
Jeff
Hmmmm, I'm not sure Logan blades will fit into something designed for conventional 'single edge razor blades'.
dave
This is what I have found,
"If" the measurements of the blades at Amazon are correct I am pretty sure they will work.It will take a little mod of the cutter knife holder though.What would need to be done is instead of using two screws to hold the blade at the notches on the razor blade sides you could drill another hole for a screw in the holder to match the Matt cutter blade hole witch is in the center of the blade.To hold the blade from rocking front to rear just put a stop at the top of the blade holder.I already have a stop on my blade holder for this reason and it also keeps the blade from moving up when pressure is put on it.
I used a short piece of .062 brass screwed to the top of the blade holder as a stop, but it must be inline with the cutting surface of the cutter to cut correctly.Make any sense?I'm thinking the extra thickness of the blade and the one flat side it may cut fairly square ?
Jeff I was kind of disappointed as well, I have spent alot of time on this thing only to have the same results as you did, I will admit it does a little better than a chopper but not worth the money or time if it doesn't work better than it is at this point.
Thanks T.C.
Gents ....
I have used a chopper for a very long time. My method to stop deflection is when cutting material approaching an eighth of an inch, I turn the material over.
It's not a problem as I seldom make a cut without a stop.
I've never had a noticeable deflection on thinner material as long as the blade is sharp. There is a point where it starts to crush the stock. I've had some success if I find the crush later to swell it back up with alcohol. But otherwise blades don't go too long. I must agree though that a single edge blade way longer than a #11 axacto blade. I do stone them a bit to get more life out of them but it's not the same as the factory edge.
See ya
Bob
Thanks for the reply Bob:
I realize what your saying about the choppers, I have and have used one along with my True sander for a very long time as well.
The reason I built this thing was to eliminate the need to use the True sander and from everything I read about it "it was the fix" as to say.
As a machinist you know that the more rigid the setup the better the results (I know your a really good machinist from looking at your builds) so wouldn't a heavier more rigid blade work better ?I think it's pretty obvious it's the blade that's moving, but what's causing it to move?
Is it the double bevel or the thickness of the blade?Would the double bevel cause the blade not to track straight, like cut a "V" ?
T.C.
My Shay Wood Miter accepts only single edge blades that have three screw hole/slots. Not sure hos a single hole will keep it from moving a bit. But on mine the upper blade "guard head" can only be so high, otherwise the blade slants because of the groove. Given that the device is a slicer, not a chopper, maybe with all the washer pivot points, it wiggles a bit during use?
T C and Bob...
You are both on to it as I see it. Yes the more rigid the better and the slicing process does have more places to wiggle but........
The slicing action reduces (I think) resistance to the cut. So.....
I've never looked for this so you are on your own here.........
If you could find hollow ground blades the blade could get farther into the material before before the wedging starts pushing to the sides. I have noticed that the resistance goes up in a cut after about .050" with a chopper.
Another factor for distortion is angle cuts on a chopper. The blade seems deflect more due to the grain of the wood in an angle cut. With no predictability. Think of the difference of a rip saw vs. a cross cut saw. The teeth are fundamentally different as is the set of the teeth.
I think I am accomplishing much of what you are describing with sanding stuff but I wait until after some levels of assembly and then square stuff up before going on.
So I think we are getting the same stuff done via different methods.
see ya
Bob
I think maybe some pictures are in order ?This is what I have built and how I have attache the blade using two screws just as the Shay cutter does.The difference is at the top of the blade holder I have a piece of brass screwed to the top to act as a stop for the top of the blade so it stay's lined up with the bed of the cutter, it's also impossible for the blade to "rock" it can only drift side to side and that's where I think the thicker blade may help.
As to fitting the Matt cutter blades to the Shay cutter.The blades in the Amazon link above measure almost identical to a single edge razor blade, the difference is the holes. So why not just get the ole Dremel out with a cut off disc and grind a couple of notches in the ends that match a razor blade?I dont see why this wouldn't also work with a chopper ?
The blades are available with a single or double bevel edge, I have ordered a box of the single bevel so I will be updating this hopefully with good news?
If I could figure out how to post a picture I would show ya what I have? :-\
[url=h(https://modelersforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FzsmEx3bm.jpg%3F1&hash=ec7d8ef3def768d58f7d4b19eb259d41df514076)ttps://imgur.com/xCuaa85](https://modelersforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FxCuaa85m.jpg&hash=6b8d473737dbec5f9e337678b8b500300ba41206) (https://imgur.com/zsmEx3b)(https://modelersforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fb0Pm5KYm.jpg&hash=a2b01ee7687657958c57db730c371b1101b91d47) (https://imgur.com/b0Pm5KY)(https://modelersforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FvE492dfm.jpg&hash=458f6de628d78b0fd25dc8fd8746a65181cdf4f6) (https://imgur.com/vE492df)
Disregard the black arrow I just haven't cleaned it off, the brass above the top of the blade is the stop.
T.C.
Fellow modelers, I got into a discussion in a forum I used to belong to on "choppers". The discussion had to do with the NWSL choppers and how they did not cut straight down on thicker pieces of wood. A closer look at the NWSL chopper showed me that the chopper is to flimsy to cut thicker pieces like 1/8" or larger. I also didn't like the way the blade was secured. So I decided to design and build my own. I also want to build a version of the Shay Chopper one of these days.
Here's my chopper. It's aluminum mounted on a piece of MDF board.
(https://modelersforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kingstonemodelworks.com%2FTTscale%2FEngine%2520House%2FIMGEH18.JPG&hash=f0d8c091c6d9383caad6f144840c51b127ccca69)
What I did was design a different way of holding the razor blade. Instead of screws, I used a pinching method.
(https://modelersforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kingstonemodelworks.com%2FTTscale%2FEngine%2520House%2FIMGEH19.JPG&hash=f60544a4963631a8bfb969d3d04e459f295edeb9)
You need to pry off the aluminum top of the blade in order for it to seat properly in the ledge milled into the blade holder.
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Here I'm testing the accuracy of the cut. I've got two razor blades mounted in the holder.
(https://modelersforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kingstonemodelworks.com%2FTTscale%2FEngine%2520House%2FIMGEH26.JPG&hash=c802ee67005bc434cefa0444d32f7b3f4d094a59)
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Now here's the nice thing about this chopper. If you need to cut thicker stock, you need a sturdier blade. The razor blade is to thin and will flex. When I designed the blade holder I made sure that a razor blade only stuck out an so I could cut an 1/8" piece. I think the cutting portion of the blade only sticks out about 5/16" or less to be able to cut a 1/8" thick piece of wood. The blade holder will hold a box cutter blade without any problem. One of these days I'm going to search for other blades that would fit.
(https://modelersforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kingstonemodelworks.com%2FTTscale%2FEngine%2520House%2FIMGEH31.JPG&hash=f19850e8890aec7e09e38c12e748d33f3d26ec04)
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This piece was cut with the razor blade in the holder. It did flex some but not as much as I've seen the NWSL chopper did on thicker pieces.
(https://modelersforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kingstonemodelworks.com%2FTTscale%2FEngine%2520House%2FIMGEH34.JPG&hash=9658090aa0fc91f4c8422e1469569c18e8dbf328)
Here are two cut with the box cutter blade. Notice the straight cut.
(https://modelersforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kingstonemodelworks.com%2FTTscale%2FEngine%2520House%2FIMGEH35.JPG&hash=a257eebf7bdd6ec175df08b360223860db09c732)
As I said I'm going to see if I can design my version of the Shay Wood Cutter using this blade holding method. It allows you to use almost any kind of cutting blade with a straight back. I searched the net and found pictures of the original Shay cutter. I think if a manufacturer used the blade holder design I'm using it would make an excellent cutter. The next step up from that would be a miniature chop saw.
Bernd
OK I finally figured out how to post pictures on my post above so you all can see my mess. ;D
Bernd do you think that idea could be added to a regular chopper easy enough?I measured a box blade thickness ant it came to .023 so that's .008 more than the matt cutter blade and .014 more than the razor blade, big difference. :o I will try the matt cutter blades on my chopper as well as my new toy I made and hopefully get both working/cutting square.
I dont know if you all noticed that I made my Shay type cutter with a moveable back stop so I can cut angles with it, hopefully it works out?Thanks again for all the replies and ideas .
T.C.
Quote from: T.C. on March 04, 2021, 02:09:23 PM
Bernd do you think that idea could be added to a regular chopper easy enough?I measured a box blade thickness ant it came to .023 so that's .008 more than the matt cutter blade and .014 more than the razor blade, big difference. :o I will try the matt cutter blades on my chopper as well as my new toy I made and hopefully get both working/cutting square.
T.C.
Hey T.C. Nice work on that cutter. I'm impressed. I never checked the thickness of the box cutter blade. I took a look at the link you provided for those mat cutter blades and they look ideal. I'll be getting some too.
I'd get rid of the aluminum top part of the razor. I think it cocks the blade and that's why it maybe cutting at an angle. If you can make a pinch holder like I did you wouldn't have to worry about the holes will line up with certain blades. Yes I think it can be modified.
Bernd
Thanks for the kind words about my work, I've seen your work so coming from you it means a lot.
I have a notch milled into the blade holder for the top of the blade to set into so the blade does set flat against the holder.The whole thing is very rigid there is no wobble anywhere so I know its got to be the blade.
When you order your blades make note that they have double bevel and single bevel.I ordered the single (supposed to be here Sat.) because I think/hope I will get a straight cut on the flat side.
The down side to it is I will have to flip the material over to cut the other end or rotate the blade so the flat is on the other side to use the other side of the cutter.
Still easier than sanding every piece square and worry about the part being to small, or even trying to sand down it to the rite size.
Thanks again T.C.
Bernd - wow. I can't even imagine the work that went into that machine. A friend of mine modified his chopper to negate the fuzz from the cuts, He took two tool steel bars, routed out an area in the base and epoxied the bars in the base, leaving a space the width of a razor blade. This allowed the blade to completely pass through the material being cut.
Myself, I always cut long and sand to final length.
Bernd, T.C. -- great work. We need something in the wild again that will give us a straight cut on 1/8" or thicker.
As a sidenote, I've recently been using one of these:
(https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/4697ccf4-ba5e-4a8a-8caf-7af1901d5faf_1.8c31f7dcac119a001ac68bdd7551d703.jpeg?odnWidth=612&odnHeight=612&odnBg=ffffff)
I don't use it to replace my chopper, of course, but this does the work I often use a single edge razor for (cutting off excess bracing, for example). Using this is a Godsend on my fingers and gives me leverage when I wouldn't otherwise have it.
Craig I will be trying the Matt cutter blades in my chopper and in my Shay type cutter.
It will probably come down to all I needed was the blades instead of all the work making a new tool. ;D
But I had fun making it and hopefully it will work just a little bit better than a chopper? ???
T.C.
Quote from: Oldguy on March 05, 2021, 09:45:27 AM
Bernd - wow. I can't even imagine the work that went into that machine.
Thanks Bob. I come from a machining background so it was second nature for me. I'm always willing to help when somebody needs to discuss something of this nature.
Bernd
Up date:
I received my Matt cutter single bevel blades today and this is what I found.
I found all I really needed to do was buy the blades and install into my old K-tool chopper. This was easy as it already had a clamp type blade holder and the blade fit with no problem :)
So I got out some 1/8"x1/8" wood and Long story short it cut as straight as you could want ! :o Go figure I could have saved myself all that work and money making the Shay type slicer and just bought the blades. Who knew! >:(
Next up was the new toy I built, I had to modify the blade holder for the new blades by drilling and taping a hole for an 8-32 screw to hold the blade in place, no big deal.
I got the same results as I did from my chopper "straight as a dime !"
So then I checked the angle cutting feature I built into my cutter to see if it would also cut angles with the same results ?It does really good on thinner stuff but has a very slight deflection on the thicker stuff, not enough to worry about and probably not bad enough to bother sanding.
Now for the down side, there's always a down side.
I notice when I cut the wood that the side of the blade with no bevel is nice and square but the other side has a very distinct angle, so that will have to be incorporated into how I use the tool.The chopper did the same, one side flat no deflection the other side not so much.I dont consider this to be a big problem because to me just having one side cut square is a big plus and I'm happy with it.
I haven't a clue what one would get with the double bevel blades?
I will try to take a few pictures of some cuts for those who are interested.
T.C.
That's some interesting findings. I wonder if the improvement is the fact that the blades are thicker and flex less plus the fact there is only one bevel on the blade.
Still the slicing cutter you built should be used. ;)
Bernd
Bernd I think both are true.
I took some photos for those interested so you can judge for yourself.
The straight cut on the left side is perfect, the right side piece has an angle this is due to the single bevel. The wood is 1/4" x1/8" and 1/8"x1/8"
T.C.
(https://modelersforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F0MAOmpbm.jpg&hash=8e201b745c7d364eb9c20df0ff4e912acf7e7deb) (https://imgur.com/0MAOmpb)
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The angle cut is not as perfect but still workable., may get better as I learn the tool a bit more?
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Bernd and T.C., both your skills to build these devices are quite impressive. I bought some of the .012 blades to try vs the .009. There didn't seem to be much difference in the Chopper, but the Shay Mitre did show an improvement with the thicker blades. The pic (which isn't very good, this is hard to photograph with my camera) in the front is the thinner blade. This was on 1/8 " square wood. I'll probably use the Shay more when needing squarer cuts. It's still not perfect but will require less sanding in the True Sander. Thanks for the tip on the larger blades.
Jeff
Jeff, thanks for the kind words.
If I may ask:
Did you buy the single or double bevel blades, also how ridged are your cutters ?Both of my cutters are very ridged and I think that also helps to keep the blade from drifting.
T.C.
Thanks Jeff, much appreciated for the kind words.
T.C. Nice job on the blade holding. I'm amazed at how a bevel on a blade can make that much difference. I think also the fact that is a slicing cut it what makes the big difference.
Bernd
Thanks Bernd, if you think about it Rail Nippers have a flat side that cuts flush on one side so I guess it's the same theory ?
Tomorrow I'll take some pictures of some 1/8x1/8" and 1/4x1/4" cut with my chopper to get an idea of how it cuts
T.C.
T.C., both sets of blades are beveled. I couldn't find non beveled, or at least it doesn't say in the descriptions. Both cutters hold the blades quite tightly and the mechanisms don't have any wiggle.
Jeff
Hey TC
Good luck with learning what you need to know.
Karl
Thanks Karl I need all the luck I can get.
I've done some more testing with my old chopper made by K-tool, it's basically the same as a NWSL copper so It will give a good idea of whats going on.
I skipped the razor blade as I know what the results would be and tested a heavy utility blade and a single bevel Matt cutter blade.
The wood pieces are 1/8x1/8" bass wood and 1/4x3/16" spruce.
The first set of pictures are the Matt cutter blade, the second set are with the Utility blade.
Matt cutter
(https://modelersforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F52ElAnmm.jpg&hash=c6c10415cf2c1852937c2c1421ba697e8826922a) (https://imgur.com/52ElAnm)
(https://modelersforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F7L7MuTam.jpg&hash=00541f48d001a28389323d038b415b0200ca0cc1) (https://imgur.com/7L7MuTa)
Utility blade
(https://modelersforum.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOIqbRIAm.jpg&hash=5923dc441eaa5f4c57312a29879c66dd51ac4cfb) (https://imgur.com/OIqbRIA)
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T.C.
I got my order in. ;0) Dennis
T.C.
Unless my eye sight is not up to snuff those cuts look like they have a very slight angle to them. Correct me if I'm wrong.
On that chopper. I'm wondering how tight the pivot point is. Is there any wiggle at the end of the handle? My thought on this type of chopping/cutting tool is you need all the rigidity you can get at the pivot point. My thought is that if the blade starts cutting at an angle it will carry all the way through. My other thought on this is does the part move under the pressure of the blade. Reason I bring this up is that my chopper is very tight at the pivot point but it still cuts with a slight angle. The angle always seems to be in the direction of the end not held down. So I'm surmising that the part moves and not the blade or the flex in the cutting arm. Thoughts?
Bernd
Bernd
You are correct all the cuts have a bevel, But the important thing is where the bevel is.
In the first two photo's you will notice the bevel is on the right side only the left side is square, I attribute that to the Matt blade with the single bevel .
In the second two photo's the bevel is on both sides more like a "V" rather than one side being square like the first two photo's, notice I have the utility blade in the tool.
I agree that my chopper is not as rigid as the shay cutter and I can see your thinking about slight drifting due to flexing, but I would think that one of the Matt cutter blades in your cutter or a newer type NWSL chopper with the better handle should produce a clean cut on one side as seen above.
I think a square cut on the piece of 3/16x1/4" spruce was impressive, the Matt blade also was easier to force though the wood.
I dont know how one would get a clean square cut on both sides? I'm sure on very small stripwood you may not notice the difference but on 1/6" or larger I feel you may?
T.C.
The big difference between the NWSL Chopper and the Shay Cutter is the former just has a vertical (guillotine) motion, while the latter adds a horizontal slicing motion. That makes the cut smoother and reduces (but does not eliminate) the tendency to get a beveled cut. I ordered some double-thick single edge razor blades, I'll report back how well they work in my Shay style cutter.
dave
I will be very interested in your results especially with thicker wood.
Personally I think it has to do more with the bevel of the blade than the thickness.I keep thinking about the flush cut rail nippers that are flat on one side, if you compare the cut you get with them to a cut from a regular pair of side cutters it's obvious.
Hopefully I am wrong as the razor blades are dirt cheep compared to the Matt cutter blades.
My goal is to be able to cut and glue, not cut then sand to size and glue.Repeatability is also a concern especially if you have to sand to size.
T.C.
Hey TC:
How you making out buddy?
Karl
Thanks for the interest Karl :
I'm pretty much set as I have already bought a 100 pack of the single bevel, Matt cutter blades.
So for me it's a done deal, I can use the blades in either of my cutters and expect to get a square cut on whatever side I have the "non bevel" turned towards. :o
I do get a little better cut with my Shay type cutter and I think that's because it's more rigid and a better system. I also like the fact I will be able to cut square 45's with the Shay.
I'm waiting to see how Dave makes out with the extra thick razor blades ?
I looked at Jeff's results and was impressed with how the heavier blade cut.
Maybe I could have bought the razor blades and been good? :'(
But I just cant get that flush cut rail nipper out of my mind. :-\
As I said my goal is to not have to sand every miter and cut clean 90's and 45's.
I think I have accomplished that.
Now I need to build something to find out for sure. :)
I want to thank all you guy's for all the advise, input and comments on this, hopefully it will also help others to get better cut's from there tools?
T.C.
Been following with great interest. I use rail nippers to cut 1/8 bracing material as it does a decent job. One end is rounded, but since it is all hidden, I don't care. For smaller square material, I found sprue cutters do a decent job. I primarily use my Chopper II for cutting metal roofing and 1x to 2x material. Bigger material will also get cut in a the Chopper, but only to rough length. I'll sand it square or to a bevel with my sander. It seems that no matter what cutting blade one uses, it'll leave a bevel. Just the nature of the beast. A single bevel should leave one cut end flat, but the other will have a bevel. If that end is to be used, then it would need to be squared.
Quote Oldguy: "A single bevel should leave one cut end flat, but the other will have a bevel. If that end is to be used, then it would need to be squared."
I totally agree, and to me one side square is better than none. If you look at my pictures you can see where the "utility" blade that has a double bevel clearly makes a "V" cut so that will leave ya having to sand square both ends, I guess you could say the single bevel blade solves half of the problem. ???
If I need multiple parts all the same size I will cut them a little longer so I can swap ends to get two square cuts rather than have to sand each to the proper length, in fact there is no reason not to cut all the parts in this manner as I think I will save time and also wood.
T.C.
Quote from: deemery on March 10, 2021, 03:21:58 PM
The big difference between the NWSL Chopper and the Shay Cutter is the former just has a vertical (guillotine) motion, while the latter adds a horizontal slicing motion. That makes the cut smoother and reduces (but does not eliminate) the tendency to get a beveled cut. I ordered some double-thick single edge razor blades, I'll report back how well they work in my Shay style cutter.
dave
Just wondering what results you got with the double thick razor blades ? :)
T.C.
Ugh, I forgot I promised a comparison. I've been off doing other stuff and it slipped my mind. Now that I'm officially Old, I can plead senility :-(
dave
No problem just curious.............now if I can remember what I was doing I'll get back to it?
T.C.